Opinion: Save the Turns, Stop the Straightlines

Nov 16, 2023
by Mike Kazimer  
Spinning Circles column Mike Kazimer

There's an unfortunate trend that seems to be happening more often at my local trail network – straightening out corners. And I don't mean going a little wider to avoid needing to jam on the brakes too hard. No, I'm talking about blatant straightlines, blasting right down the middle of a beautiful section of squiggles in order to avoid slowing down. All it takes is one or two riders to start taking a different route, and before you know it that becomes the main line, since humans seem to be hardwired to take the path of least resistance.

It's not just KOM-hungry Strava racers that are to blame either – there are other sections where straightlines are developing because the alternative would be to navigate over a series of slippery roots, and maybe a puddle or two, something that requires (gasp) slowing down to avoid getting spit sideways, and some basic bike handling skills.

Photo Clayton Wangbichler
A slight turn and a little puddle won't hurt you - go right, not left.

I've tried dragging logs over the cheater lines, covering them up with a pile of debris that makes it abundantly clear which way the trail is supposed to go... and then a few days later the straightline will be back again. The concept of stopping to unblock a trail braid boggles my mind, especially since it means someone is too lazy to work on their cornering skills, but motivated enough to stop and open up their own easy off-ramp.

Cornering is one of those skills that most riders will never truly perfect (myself included), and it's a big part of what makes riding so much fun. Mountain biking is supposed to be hard, at least some of the time. Every ride is like a puzzle, a quest to unlock the flow and find the cleanest way through a section.

Stone King Rally 2022 Day 4
Corners are for cornering, not cutting. Photo: Sven Martin

Putting in an egregious straightline, whether that's in the quest of speed or in an attempt to make things easier, is disrespectful to the next riders down the trail, and it's disrespectful to the original trail builder. Turns are there for a reason – take the time to enjoy them, to revel in the body and bike movements that are required to maintain momentum.

Yes, I know that this article fits into the 'old man yells at clouds' category, and expressing frustrations over trails being straightened out or dumbed down is a well worn path. However, the fact that it's still occurring, and seems to becoming increasingly common makes it seem like it's worth shouting some more.

photo
Future me, shouting at the sky on my on my wireless brake equipped bike.

Years ago, Seb Kemp wrote a great article over on NSMB that still pops into my mind sometimes. He wrote, “Life is full of twists and turns and we have to train ourselves to deal with bends in the trails of our lives and not slip and fall when we’re faced with a curve.” I'm not going to get all touch-feely here, but there's something to be said for not backing down from a challenge and embracing the awkward. Tight turns and weird technical sections of trail are good for the soul, even if it doesn't immediately seem like it. Spend enough time trying to appreciate the old school, techical jank and you might be surprised – one day it'll all start to click, and flow will appear where it previously didn't seem like any existed.

For that vast majority of riders out there that aren't cutting corners, pat yourself on the back - thanks for playing nice. And don't be afraid to close off straightlines, drain puddles, and remove blowdown (keeping safety in mind, of course) – those small acts of trail maintenance can go a long ways. While you're at it, feel free to knock over any unnecessary stacks of rocks too. Rock stacking isn't art, it's obnoxious and unsightly, but that's probably a topic for another time.

As for the riders that are making those straightlines in the first place, well, the pinch flat fairy will find them soon enough.




Author Info:
mikekazimer avatar

Member since Feb 1, 2009
1,721 articles

505 Comments
  • 547 10
 I approve of this message.
  • 40 6
 I concur
  • 59 6
 Yup. It's a plague everywhere.
  • 21 6
 When I built trails on my land, a buddy commented to my wife that it was “too winding, and asked why did he make the trail go through rocky areas?

Seriously, if I wanna go straight and coast, I’ll go back to riding.
  • 69 16
 Usually effing loosers trying to shave a couple of seconds off their Strava leaderboard time. Rot in heck.
  • 70 2
 I agree...But tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!
  • 1 5
flag mi-bike (Nov 16, 2023 at 13:20) (Below Threshold)
 (2)
  • 5 1
 @CantClimb: There was a 4 inch log embedded across a trail here and someone kept putting a rock as cheater against to avoid the 4 inches (my son on 20" wheels rolled when he was 6). I'd remove the rocks and finally they took a sawzall and notched out the log.
  • 36 1
 So does Sam Hill in his Hotlaps a few years back:

"Dirty dog straighlines, I hate it when people straightline ma tracks at home....we put corners in for a reason!"

He still got the 2nd fastest of all time, no French lines, first time down the track 1 second off local Remy......
  • 27 16
 And we all know strava is to blame here. Trying to get that PB, slowly losing the understanding of why they even ride: to have fun.
  • 90 3
 MAKE MOUNTAIN BIKING HARD AGAIN!
  • 9 1
 @SATN-XC: exactly! Mountain Biking has never been, and never shall be a straight sport.
  • 14 5
 VALLEY KOOKS GO HOME!
  • 9 1
 @SATN-XC: This is a perfectly cromulent concept.
  • 11 0
 @suspended-flesh: Sounding like a true Santa Cruz local
  • 40 0
 @nickfranko: I wouldn’t blame Strava. People have cut corners or gone around difficult obstacles since mountain biking was a thing. Strava doesn’t help of course but put the blame on the pussies that don’t want to do nothing hard, or need to cheat for a useless Strava time.
  • 42 0
 @nickfranko: I don’t think it’s Strava anymore. Just inconsiderate bro culture that has become more prevalent in recent years. Speed over everything. “You’re not rad unless you’re going fast, brah.”
  • 44 34
 @Someoldfart: So true. We should blame the Pussies ( Ebikers) that don't want to do nothing hard!!!!
  • 45 13
 @Three6ty: no need to blame, they are the problem, and not just DH, literally all uphill trails are cut straight now because why not, they have a motor...
  • 3 0
 @Chondog94: exactly what I was thinking (as someone who spent the first 50 years of my life in the SC surf scene).
  • 17 33
flag slickwilly1 (Nov 16, 2023 at 17:52) (Below Threshold)
 Trails are like rivers they change course over time, obviously if a line is worked in, it is because that is where the majority people of ride, go with the flow and take the old way if you want, but some trails ride way better with a different than designed route. I also agree that cutting corners just to be fast on an app is silly.
  • 2 0
 @suspended-flesh: what Valley? Haha
  • 7 2
 Yup.

I’ve taken issue with this for years here in the Okanagan where all it takes is one lazy rider or more often ‘hiker’ (read urbanite dressed in MEC gear) to lay a path through our fragile flora and it’s a ‘trail’ or new alignment followed by the masses. Having been an exec on the local trail club, built and maintained trails and trained others to do so, it’s flat out insulting.
  • 2 0
 @birdsandtrees: The one east of Lexington rez on 17.
  • 13 1
 It's unfortunate that 100's of hrs of trail maintenance time is spent blocking braids and repairing damage from shot cut types. Why ride a trail with corners if all you want to do is go straight. Ride the trail as it was built.
  • 2 0
 @suspended-flesh: got it. Thought it was the Central Valley for some reason and I was like awwww people from the bay always hate on the Central Valley haha
  • 3 0
 For all the trail dorks, checkout Natural Surface Trails by Design. Some interesting takes on the psychology of trails and how we interact with them. www.natureshape.com/pubs/nstbd.html
  • 7 5
 I’ll take trail braids over that ****ery the IMBA does to EVERY trail they touch
  • 12 14
 @nickfranko: that and heavy e-bikes
  • 3 0
 @amstx: one of our local spots here is called Black Rocks. The upper most trails are strewn with rocks and obviously it’s what makes it fun to ride. The rocks in particularly janky locations have a funny habit finding their way off the trail. I replace them but it’s an uphill battle against the human need to make things easier.
  • 35 16
 @jimoxbox: Can we stop blaming "heavy e-bikes"? They weigh about 7kg more than a normal MTB. There's plenty of riders on non-ebikes that weigh more than some riders on ebikes.
  • 2 7
flag jpnbrider (Nov 17, 2023 at 0:38) (Below Threshold)
 I approve my KOM, you just jealous
  • 28 3
 Can I suggest that modern geometry trends might exacerbate this. We are all encouraged to ride longer more stable bikes that give incredible confidence in a straight line, but aren't quite as nimble in sharp technical corners. Bikes are evolving which in turn changes the shape of the ideal trail. We would be riding completely different trails if we were still on 90s hardtails. This evolution might even be a good thing, I really don't miss my old hard tail or the trails I used to ride on it.
  • 24 8
 I agree. This is the result of "longer, lower, slacker." As bikes follow these trends, they handle way worse, and the riders want easier, strait line trails. There are only good for strait bombing lines. It's crazy how as bikes get more "capable," the riders are getting worse at handling them.
  • 8 4
 @wobblegoblin: Seriously, f*ck flow trails.
  • 8 2
 @Someoldfart: I’ve spent way more time blocking straight lines than I have building actual trails recently. Now I’ve just started putting kickers in where the straight lines would be so that if you cut the turn you’ll just be going into the jump too fast. It’s usually kids trying to win glitched Strava times that can’t be beaten.
  • 3 1
 @nickfranko: strava is still going , i thought it was the myspace of sporting apps now they try to make a living from it
  • 2 0
 @Compositepro: try leaving it on by accident for you drive home tonight and see how many hate messages you get of roadies for cheating. Still alive and well in that part of the industry.
  • 2 9
flag vw4ever (Nov 17, 2023 at 6:24) (Below Threshold)
 @slickwilly1: unpopular opinion. The corner that he mentions in the article does nothing to add to the trail. I saw the blocked off ride around the other day, and it would probably make more sense. I am not a Strava guy.

Also, that trail is mostly unmaintained as far as anyone can tell and I’d be surprised if the trailbuilder was out there more than once a year.
  • 5 1
 @matyk: Not sure there. I live for riding corners. Obviously also because I never hit the speeds that even make smooth and wide stuff seem fun. But yeah, the beauty of tight corners are that anyone can make them challenging for themselves without being particularly dangerous (which smooth and wide stuff can be). Either way, when I moved on from a bike with a 69deg head angle (DMR Switchback) to one with a 63deg HA (BTR Ranger) it didn't suddenly make me straightline stuff. The trail is the trail, I ride it the way I should. I might tilt the bike a bit more but it definitely doesn't feel like the bike gets in the way. Ones bike of choice should never be an excuse to mess up a trail.
  • 7 0
 @SATN-XC: I voted for Kodos.
  • 1 0
 @SATN-XC: Kang-Kodos 2024
  • 1 0
 @birdsandtrees: they need to stay home and grow our food, while we shred
  • 2 0
 @ultimatist: I’m fine with that relationship. Bass Lake, Skyline, Exchequer…. All those spots have a couple of top trails that get like two people a day. It’s wild.
  • 7 3
 @palenciabryan: I see more of this at our local trails because of E-bikers. Cutting corners both figuratively and literally.
  • 7 6
 @Three6ty: I hear both the Russian and Israeli army ride E-Bikes. . .
  • 3 3
 @wobblegoblin: OK. Thanks for that input........
  • 1 0
 @Rose that's for U
  • 5 0
 Here’s an idea; hide a motion-activated video camera in the bushes. Grab a snapshot of the culprit who removed your logs, print them out and post it at the trailheads and at the straight lines. Public shaming always works.
  • 9 3
 There is a harsh irony in writing an article inciting hatred and shame upon people who take shortcuts, creating an inferior product and undermining the hard work of other people.. and then slapping an AI generated image in the article right in the face of your contractor artists. Truly remarkable juxtaposition.
  • 4 2
 @L0rdTom: Art on Pinkbike is typically pretty good, but sometimes Taj needs a day off too, Waki got banned and Jon Gregory is already taken by Misspent Summers. This is what they're left with.
  • 5 12
flag DoubleCrownAddict (Nov 18, 2023 at 5:57) (Below Threshold)
 The article completely lacks context. I've seen boring switchback corners that were massively improved once the switchbacks were removed, and the trail is better for it and the old line was revegitated. If it's not a hiking trail and only a downhill biking trail it's totally justified to remove awkward tight switchbacks so that the trail can be shredded. So many trails are designed with boring switchback after boring switchback with zero variety, best thing you can do for those trails is change them up. I also advocate long-cuts for these trails, going off trail and creating a longer more sustainable traverse and then doing a long wide turn instead of a switchback before coming back to the trail with another traverse. The best way to do these changes is to not build the exit and re-entrance until you've got the rest of the new improved trail completely built, keep it hidden until it's almost done.
  • 1 1
 @vinay: I agree that the art on Pinkbike has always been pretty good. I guess that is why this use stuck out and is hopefully not the beginning of things to come from a publication that champions small companies and creative workers of many kinds, such as artists, design engineers, trailbuilders etc.
  • 1 0
 @RadBartTaylor: Please, he won competitions by taking lines no one else use and saw, there is famous, famous footage of him "inside lining" it.
  • 3 0
 @matyk: speak for yourself. If you don’t know how to handle them, don’t assume those that do don’t know exactly what we’re doing. The problem isn’t the trails being to tough, it’s the trails having no challenge and these stupid flow trails are boring shit the second time you ride them.
  • 1 0
 i sent this message and our community went berserk..ahahaha

"disrespectful to the original trail builder"

this is so true..i build trails here and seeing rider straightline the turns makes me want to burry them under that jumps..ahahaha
  • 2 0
 @FoesKnows: Racing is inherently unsustainable, whether it is XC or DH. In racing they tape the course and racers are free to ride it whichever way they please as long as they stay between the tape. Going beyond the sides of the original line to avoid the ruts and puddles, locking up the rear wheel on the descends rather than gracefully modulate the front brake and keep them wheels spinning... If everyone would ride like the racers do in competition, all those trails would turn in a wide boring mess. The only proper trails that may be able to cope with that are those in a very wet climate with a lattice of strong roots and rocks keeping everything together.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: that’s for sure. The local enduro race series has accelerated the life cycle of so many trails around here! They always donate some money to the trail advocacy group to make / get first crack at new ones, but we can’t go back.
So it goes.
  • 5 0
 @DoubleCrownAddict: to counter the argument, the trail is the trail. It’s how fast you can go within its limits that is the skill and satisfaction at the end. If you want a straight line trail then find the one that’s black diamond/ designed to be that way, but don’t try to twist an intentional trail into something it’s not.
  • 2 0
 @FoesKnows: on a "race" track in between the tape anything goes dude - on a public trail it's very different.
  • 1 0
 @RadBartTaylor: what about a race on a public trail? Or on an illegal trails?
  • 1 0
 @owl-X: if on public trails they should tape off sections they don't want folks riding.....
  • 4 0
 @RadBartTaylor: The question isn't quite, how can we organize sustainable races on dirt. It doesn't work because racers come there with a single minded focus to be the fastest, whatever it takes, exploring the limits of what's regulated. A proper trail rider is a bit like a company founder, an artisan. Trying to do what they're doing in a way that it can be sustained for many more years. A racer is more like an interim manager. They arrive, beat around, take a crap, take the money and leave. It is a very different discipline.
  • 1 0
 @matyk: 100% agree. We happen to have in our bike stable an old C-Dale Raven from 1999, an intense 5.5 from 2008, a Giant Glory from 2011, an Orange Alpine 160 2012, a Santa Cruz Bronson 2016, (My actual least favorite believe it or not) and a 2021 Intense Tracer. So it’s easy for any of us riders in the family to compare bikes from different eras. Mind you they’re all built up with very good modern builds etc. The Raven has a Thomson dropper, 1x drive train and a 140mm fork, and a custom made rear shock. So the old bikes aren’t limited by the components. So we’ve got a good comparison base. I gotta tell you the most nimble, best cornering bike we have is the Intense 5.5. Is it the most stable? Hell no! Most maneuverable? Absolutely! Modern bikes with big wheels and long long wheelbases are great plowing through tech. Whipping around tight twisty corners??? Takes much more technique, and strength. Newton says it must be so.
  • 1 0
 @Jedski89: I blame light e bikers too. I climb trees
  • 1 0
 @SATN-XC: you win!
  • 4 0
 @nickfranko: when I build trails I always build the technical features to be the direct fast routes and the ride arounds as the long meandering ways - all the Strava bros around here are scared of a 6’ gap jump or a bit of a drop.

No chance they get their badges unless they can ride a bike.
  • 2 0
 @s100: yup!
  • 274 5
 Another semi-related hot take: not every corner requires a berm. I enjoy them but I also enjoy the challenge of trying to find grip amd speed on off camber turns.
  • 30 16
 If you need a been to turn, you need to practice riding
  • 19 19
 This too. Ban the berm! Flat turns only! Buy a Madonna!
  • 13 11
 @st-lupo: I feel like this is how guys over 40 feel about new trails. Keep it how it was! Sorta like my old music!
I friggin love berms, but appreciate variety too, although I'm less into a trail of more flat turns than more berms.
  • 6 0
 This is why I love our local trails. Shitload of corners, but on like six trails there are maybe like 5 proper berms Big Grin
  • 20 37
flag nickfranko (Nov 16, 2023 at 14:01) (Below Threshold)
 I know, and remove jumps from trails, too. Imagine needing a jump when you can just bunny hop to get air.
  • 8 1
 @nickfranko: what??? remove jumps? Why?
  • 3 1
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Uh, did you read how @DKlassen8 does like berms? And flat corners too. Variety isn't a bad thing.
  • 4 1
 This has happened to a few tracks i love. A berm gets put in on a previously flat tricky corner and changes the whole speed of the track for the upcoming section, making it way too fast.
  • 1 1
 For sure. I found some flat corners on a trail near me recently and was glad to finally find a place to practice flat and off camber corners.
  • 4 0
 Not every corner definitely true. Flat corners, off camber, berms, ruts, I think there's a good place for all of these
  • 2 5
 @gnarlysipes: Lol! Practicing flat turns is easy, ride a figure eight on any flat surface
  • 1 0
 @st-lupo: this is the way
  • 8 0
 YES!!! I'm sick and tired of the f*ckin bermkakke the trail builders put in on every goddam trail here. Where I ride, there is a large park (325km2) owned and managed by a Federal agency. For about 25 years, the old guard tried banning mountain bikers from most of it (essentially all but 6km of single track). But renegade trails kept popping up, and with the popularity of the sport, they had to relent. Now they are "officializing" all the old trails, and putting berms EVERY-FRIKKIN-Where... it's killed the old flow. It used to require skill to ride, now any muppet on an e-fatbike or cyclocross bike can ride the "black diamond" trails...

Also, this notion that a trail "should" go somewhere... wth?! "should" is subjective. It belies values and the underlying skill a rider/builder has or doesn't have. IMO, a trail has a natural flow. Where the builder originally put it is merely a suggestion. Over time, the trail evolves and the natural flow comes out. Stop fighting it, and embrace it. And sometimes, it's ok to have an A and a B line. It allows rider preference and expression to come out. Obviously, there are limits, braided trails to go around perennially wet spots are a problem that need to be addressed lest a trail become 18m wide.
  • 10 0
 Honestly I think this is a big part of it. People have adapted to mostly riding bermed flow trails with turns that have bike-friendly radii. Throw in some off camber or a turn that's tightening radius or what have you and people just don't want to deal with it and cut it.

At our local beginner friendly trail network (probably 25 miles of trail) I can go for a 2 hour ride and see literally not a single person, with the exception of a steady stream of riders heading up the climb for the flow trail. They're lapping the same 1 mile loop at the same time I'm riding 20+ miles of different fun trail. Note that we're not talking about anything gnarly or difficult either, just normal XC trails. But people just ride the same thing over and over instead.
  • 1 0
 On smaller trails, berms are built for the berms themselves as much as for the deep hole in the inside corner. This allows for easier maintenance. Water and whatever it takes with it runs to towards the hole and keeps the trail free from standing water (which erodes quickly as it is being ridden). When you want to fix something, very often the material you need is in that hole in the inside corner. Also, as much as we all love natural trails, somehow people still seem to avoid the wet rut in the middle and swerve to the edges, widening the trail and causing erosion. So if you can avoid standing water and avoid the development of wet ruts, you can actually keep those nice and narrow trails.

For context, the corner in the picture seems perfectly fine and I too wouldn't like to see shortcuts there. I'm primarily advocating creating some banked turns around holes where you'd otherwise have a wide straight section where people would both ride as well as brake too hard.
  • 1 1
 I’ll say it again, practicing flat corners is not hard. You don’t even need a trail. I’m sorry if this logic detracts from your hard core trail-shredding ways.
  • 1 0
 @emptybe-er: sure, but it’s far more fun to use flat cornering in anger. I’m not as dead set against berms as I originally sounded, but I think they have a place: the park. I get all uppity when every damn thing gets turned into a flow trail.
Long live jank; jank and turns should be able to co-exist.
  • 3 0
 @st-lupo: Variety is the spice of Rides
  • 1 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: Cheers to that!
  • 1 0
 @st-lupo: My comment was directed at gnarlysipes who said they finally found some flat corners to practice on (because berms have taken over), which is funny because you don’t even need a trail to practice flat corners. I’m picturing a goggled-up wagonwheeler stopping to re-ride flat corners after adjusting tire pressure
  • 1 0
 @emptybe-er: Asphalt and concrete aren’t anything like dirt. And dirt/gravel parking lots don’t track the same as typical trails (at least my local trails).
  • 144 15
 Also. Stop building too many curves when not necessary. The trails are dumbed down to the point that the previous fall lines from decades of use that are still manageable are circumvented with winding flat boring paths.
  • 63 13
 Yup. nothing like riding a trail for it only to just ribbon back onto itself for no reason other than to make a longer trail. I call it 'trail for the sake of trail'. Use the natural flow of the terrain to build trails, not follow a rule book with specific slope gradients and switch backs. It's just switchbacks everywhere these days.
  • 15 15
 Yeeeup. I rode Copper Harbor recently... Jesus H. That system is so insanely boring. Every downhill trail is just swoopy flow turns with tabletops in-between. There's a ton of potential for some cool fall and ridgeline natural tech trails, but it's ruined because some traverse BS is happening across almost every built-out bluff. IMBA snooze-fest.
  • 61 36
 If you comment was "when I build a trail, I do it this way," then fair play and good on ya. Criticizing what other people build is lame, full stop. Don't ride it if you don't like it. Build something you like better.
  • 8 0
 I agree, I've seen expensive machined trails with too many berms that just aren't fast enough, and no one rides them.
  • 38 3
 @VtVolk: Nah. Thats not how it works. Not listening to criticism because it came from someone who wasn't on the tools for a specific build would lead to an echo chamber. Also like, how is everyone everywhere supposed to show up to every dig day for every trail. Feedback is important and there are tons of people out there who ride amazingly well and can give great feedback who I would NOT want grabbing a shovel to fix a berm.

Also I assume what Iron is talking about is the shitty reworks or sanctioning of trails that turn them into hucks of what they once were.
  • 14 2
 @VtVolk: get what you're saying and applaud that intent, but it only holds true if builders have access to land enough and freedom to fulfill that intent. if builders of sanctioned trails on limited land aren't listening to local riders and are just building flow for the masses everywhere then there's a problem needs calling out. a volunteer driven, rider focused, inclusive, honest and open trail governance organisation that also turns a blind eye to the liability issues inherent in guerilla building is required; even moreso if land is scarce and access limited.
  • 26 4
 @VtVolk: If we're talking about public trails the community should be able to voice an opinion. This idea that trail builders are a sacred cow insulated from any criticism is a toxic mentality.
  • 18 4
 @VtVolk: Hold on there guy.... do you build trails??? Doesn't sound like it. Because if you did, you would be very aware of the bureaucratic cluster and procedural nightmare that involves getting permission to build a trail. Just telling someone to build a new trail is no good. Trust me, many of us would love to.
  • 10 0
 @VtVolk: I’m just going to point out that many locations do not allow you to just build whatever you like.
  • 26 1
 @MT36: This is a good and important discussion, and I'm totally open to different opinions. Yes I build trails, and yes, I'm lucky to live in a place with relatively easy access to public and private land, relatively low bureaucracy, and tons of very varied trails all over the place. So, I guess my statement does come from a place of relative privilege. Still, I can't help but feel that if every complainer in the comments section actually showed up to dig days, boring meetings, and the rest of it, there would be a whole lot less complaining and probably a whole lot more trails. The idea that trail builders are the only ones who get a say isn't right, but those who do the showing up get to have their voices heard and those that don't shouldn't be bitching in the comments, or even worse, on the trails they're riding for free that someone else built.
  • 17 2
 Using more turns to control gradient is an essential trail building technique to ensure the longevity of a (high traffic) trail, especially where water draining must be controlled to prevent erosion issues during each rain. Similar to using grade reversals to control water flow and prevent puddling (in addition to preventing erosion).
  • 7 12
flag jeremy3220 FL (Nov 16, 2023 at 14:14) (Below Threshold)
 @VtVolk: That mentality made sense when there wasn't that many riders around. It doesn't make sense when there's a large community. Did you help build the roads you drive on, the sidewalks you walk on, the electrical grid you use? If you're building public trails you're serving the public and they should have an input. If you want to build pet projects then it needs to be private land.
  • 2 0
 I hear you but this is a much more in depth topic - the slope of the terrain, the localized geology, climate, traffic, multi user trails, need for trail sustainability, amount of resources available for maintenance, and overall trail network are all considerations
  • 9 0
 @mrbrighteyes: I'm curious what trails you rode in Copper Harbor? Did you ride Overflow, Citrus Tech, Red Trail? I'm not saying you're wrong, just a little surprised that you didn't find any of it fun.
  • 1 1
 This is the best argument for some straightlines. There are definitely lots of new trails being built that simply have badly built turns (whether they be flat or bermed) that a straighter line can make more fun. The picture example in the article is just silly though, that's a great turn.
  • 1 0
 @Deep-Friar: You know people who can ride but haven’t figured out how to pack dirt? Don’t let them fool you lol
  • 3 0
 @VtVolk: "I'm lucky to live in a place with relatively easy access to public and private land, relatively low bureaucracy, and tons of very varied trails all over the place"
Where is this place and how soon can I move there?
  • 1 1
 @jeremy3220: you're so right, when I learned to write in elementary school, we made a list of likes and dislikes, then discussed it. The ability to have this kind of discussion is such a basic skill, seems like this guy missed that lesson.
  • 3 0
 @jeremy3220: roads, sidewalks and grid are built by paid workers. So yes, he helped to build them by paying his taxes. Most trails are built by volunteers for free.
  • 2 4
 @carrottread: Most trails are anything but free. The local government possibly bought the land and gave grant money to build the trail. Or they have some agreement with the trail organization to maintain the road/parking lot, facilities like trash bins, porta-potty, etc. The local trail organization probably raises money to pay for at the bare minimum trail building supplies. Someone can donate to the trail building fund. I don't know of any trails built for free.
  • 3 0
 @jeremy3220: Depending on where you live you might have trails built in agreement with the land owners, with bike club dollars or grants and you might have rogue built trails that were indeed built for free. Where I live the majority of trails were rogue built, and those that were rogue built and are now sanctioned were merely grandfathered in. Probably the majority of the most popular trails in my area are unsanctioned/illegal trail that the land owners turn a blind eye to as we are in their eyes stewards of the land compared to the 4x4 and moto crowd that tend to do real damage to the area.
A lot of the most famous trails in the North Shore were rogue built and have been adopted by the networks and made sanctioned.
  • 1 0
 @atrokz: I agree. This is also a very Ontario specific problem. Middle age xc riders riding in circles to acrew milage.
  • 1 1
 @gnarnaimo: I'm not talking about rogue trails of course.
  • 3 0
 @VtVolk:
I did build some of the trails that I am referring specifically to. Then a group of IMBA-ciles, “adopted” the trails, took full credit for and drastically altered them…
I have since moved on to new territory. Far from their scope of attention.
  • 1 0
 To add onto this, you can build a steep line that is sustainable. It takes rock armoring the braking points, proper drainage, and some smart and savvy planning, but it is 100 percent doable.
  • 2 0
 @jeremy3220: Well, you said most trails. Depending on where you live, most trails might be unsanctioned. Such as where I live, and possibly where @carrottread lives.
  • 1 0
 @jeremy3220: Not to mention, the trails that are supported by any sort of funding, the boots on the ground putting in the work are almost always volunteers who are indeed working for free.
  • 1 2
 @gnarnaimo: I said public trails
  • 2 0
 @jeremy3220: I see that now in your original comment now. Still, like I said, usually the folks doing the work and usually the person flagging the trails are working for free. Whereas the people designing and building roads, sidewalks and grids are paid.
  • 105 3
 Solution that'll work sometimes: don't cover the straightline, make it a gap jump with deadfall/rocks/etc. in the middle to clear. Mountain bikers never tear down jumps. It's now a harder option (instead of easier) and if you can clear it, it's the new A-line.
  • 7 0
 Thats a great idea
  • 7 0
 Give this man a raise!
  • 14 1
 This is basically the situation on the trails around Golden, CO. The inside/straight lines are usually the most difficult. The windy/turny lines are often going around the gnar.
  • 4 0
 best take
  • 8 1
 The way i look at it, if you can pull hard enough and hold enough speed to hop across, then you deserve the corner cut, if you're rolling through it then you belong on the main line. There's an old gap inside a tree at my home trails that i used to take pride in. Now it's been cleared and become the normal rollable line. Sad times. I'm motivated now to get up there and drag the old log back in to the gap.
  • 14 0
 Mountain bikers never tear down jumps LMAO. Tell that to NEMBA on the East Coast.
  • 4 0
 @m-t-g: this holds true for most of the front range, and its bad ass!
  • 8 7
 Corners are more difficult than a gap jump. MTB needs to drop this idea that jumps make a trail hard. Straight lines - whether gaps or rolling - are easier to ride than corners.
  • 4 0
 @bigmeatpete420: I don’t actually know what NEMBA does for trail work around here beyond telling people not to build anything, and I’ve been a member for 4 years.

I can see why VMBA does their own thing.
  • 3 0
 @sjma: they literaly just get in the way and then they do build a trail and it SUCKS
  • 1 0
 Sure, to take off is easy. But won't these huckers mess up the trail where they land or do you build these jumps exactly so that people can land perfectly in line with the trail. Otherwise it is where they land where they'll be widening and eroding the trail. Similarly obviously near the take off. If they ride the run-in to the corner differently to maintain/gain speed in order to be able to hit the jump, it might also mess up the section before the corner.

So yeah, I'm all for line choice but this approach may not prevent trail erosion.
  • 1 0
 @bigmeatpete420: Thank god for VMBA! Vermont doing its own thing has saved our trails
  • 1 0
 @torontomtb: Very hard to argue against this
  • 110 12
 Well, I would like to see less over-engineered flow trails for more raw technical trails. Not fond of flow trails. Flow trails are like dumbed down freeways.
  • 38 5
 FR, all of the bike parks paying millions for shitty highway flow trails kills me.
  • 25 5
 @Tjameson: Totally agree. More advantages of raw technical trails is that riders go slower, actually use their suspension/skills, and in my opinion need less maintenance because the rocks and roots help keep the trails from eroding. Flow trails need constant maintenance because of erosion. Flow trails have their place, but not all new trails need to be flow trails.
  • 12 3
 Raw trails are real!
  • 6 1
 @Tjameson: Whistler has entered the chat.
  • 9 0
 Flow trails also require way more maintenance than raw technical trails.
  • 30 1
 I believe there is a perfect balance of tech and flow. the perfect trail is raw tech but that flows once you've ridden 4-5 times and know the lines. I dislike tech that slows you right down and feels like a disruption to the speed of the trail.
  • 12 3
 I'm so over flow trails.
  • 6 0
 @BermJunky: Hahah Whistler gets a pass because Whistler
  • 4 0
 @Tjameson: If it enables the park to bring in more users and have a financially sustainable bike park I'm all for it. But obviously there is a balance to be found.
  • 4 0
 Well, I too love raw and technical trails. However, I think having some flow trails around is a good thing since they draw the crowds away from the good stuff.
  • 7 2
 @BermJunky: I go to WBP every year for 4-7 days. I hit flow trails less than 5 total runs.

WPB has some of the best lift access gnar on the planet. It is what you make it.
  • 3 0
 @Mtbdialed: relax. Just a joke.
  • 3 1
 @Tjameson: A bike park is the only place to find a flow trail on the east coast.
  • 3 1
 @BermJunky: I suspected, but figured I would clarify to people that aren't familiar.


cheers!
  • 1 0
 @Mtbdialed: no worries! Cheers!
  • 5 1
 I mean, if you can ride it with a road bike without much hassle, then it ain't mountain biking.
  • 7 0
 +1 for raw trails. Especially for newcomers, slower trails with more obstacles are safer. If it is easy to reach such speeds that it becomes too hard to compensate for trail damage or something unexpected, that's what dangerous. So if these resorts want to attract more beginners, get them on tighter trails. The sense of speed doesn't come from the speedometer on Strava. It comes from the g-forces and the sense you're on the limits of your ability. And that's only fun if you exceed the limits of your ability without too big of a consequence. 20km/h in the woods gets you that. 30km/h (over twice the kinetic energy) on a flow trail doesn't give the thrill. 40km/h on a flow trail doesn't allow a beginner to get away with mistakes.
  • 1 0
 Where should I be moving to be in this flow trail heaven you're talking about? Every time I hear that there are only flow trails being built and nobody has given me a place I can go where everything is smooth berms and intermediate jumps.
  • 2 0
 @The-Wheel: Just look where any new trails are being built. Pretty much all of the new trails are flow tracks. I have yet to see any new trails built that are raw technical tracks unless by private trail builders.
  • 1 0
 @tacklingdummy: guess I gotta move to California. We have no shortage of technical trails in the east
  • 1 0
 @mmarkey21: Financially is 100% why resorts do it. Where is more money coming from? The 7% of riders riding the hard lines that bring their own booze and don't buy food or the 97%(stats made up) of families riding green/blue trails paying mucho dinero for 5 lift tickets, hotel, restaurants etc. The hard trails are pretty much only viable for marketing. It sucks but like you said there's a balance, but unfortunately that scale tips towards where the money is.
  • 2 0
 @The-Wheel: You would be right. Too many flow trails here. I live near Santa Cruz. The newest trail in Santa Cruz mountains at Demonstration Forest (Demo) is named The Flow Trail. Fitting name. Lol. I haven't ridden it and no real desire to ride it. It requires way more trail maintenance. However, it is the most popular trail to ride in Demo which is fine by me because then there are less riders on Braille and Sawpit which are much better technical tracks. Braille and Sawpit need very little maintenance and have been the same for years and years.
  • 2 0
 @The-Wheel: It's my understanding that Bentonville is full of flow trails. I have no interest in going there to verify that.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: Yeah but on modern bikes it's still extremely easy to reach speed even on the most tech trails. I agree though, it's all about natural trails, I can agree with a flow trail if there is no terrain to work with, but anywhere there is terrain it has to be natural. A good natural trail is like a nice piece of music manuscript to figure out and ride. A flow trail is like guitar hero.
  • 46 3
 Thank god, somebody else who agrees with my sentiments against rock stacking. Stop it, for the love of god. Strava lines can die too - especially when they get so worn in they become the main line and trick me into taking them.
  • 3 0
 Are we talking like rock balancing stacks? Or stacks of rock that are used as roll features? Whats wrong with adding some features on the side?
  • 76 10
 @sb666, rock balancing stacks. Kick 'em all down.
  • 14 0
 @mikekazimer: what if the climb trail is called Cairn Me Up? Based on your opinion there will be rock stacks on it or not.
  • 20 0
 @sb666: Rock stacks are fine if they're there for navigating reasons, especially those trails in the desert that don't have obvious ribbons of dirt to follow. I think any notes about kicking them down is more about the 'pointless' stacks that you might find on beaches, popular viewpoints, or easy-to-follow trails.
  • 2 0
 @sb666: If the obstacle doesn't require rocks to do, and then someone stacks rocks to make it easier, than you just dumbed down the obstacle.

I'm dealing with that on a local obstacle. People keep stacking rocks to make it easier to do, even though I'm already capable of doing it on my XC bike. People just want everything be easier/faster.
  • 10 0
 I walked a very popular trail in Iceland and it was littered with the bloody things, despite signs discouraging them. I had a great time running round and knocking them all down.
  • 3 4
 @mikekazimer: so, pile sticks not rocks. Got it.
  • 18 0
 All these painted rocks need to go to. Leave no trace means leave your kid's crafts at home folks!
  • 7 10
 @mikekazimer: Would rather ride my bike than kick rocks around.
  • 4 9
flag Mtbdialed (Nov 16, 2023 at 15:02) (Below Threshold)
 @mikekazimer: every single f*cking one mate! I have 100's of short videos of me kicking a Cairn down when I ride past them.

Narcissitic scourage of our time
  • 2 5
 I cairn't even... I'm glad I'm not the only one that knocks those things down. Although I wonder if we get the Fraggle Effect, where the cairn builders wouldn't exist without us knocking their shit down all the time.
  • 8 2
 @birdsandtrees

Q: Why’d the rock stack get cancelled?
A: It was acting like a Cairn.
  • 3 4
 @mikekazimer: I'm from the Eastern US and most professional trailbuilders I know are happy with a rock stack. If you have an excavator I think it's especially cool to see a big rock somewhere unexpected. Why are you for knocking down something someone put a little extra time and thought into when making a (likely free to use) trail that you're now using?
  • 5 0
 @mikekazimer: what about snowmen? Do you kick them too?
  • 4 0
 @birdsandtrees: there are three reasons for cairns: 1) it’s a new trail that still needs to be packed in, and people don’t know it yet; 2) they are placed for culturally significant reasons; 3) a trail cuts across a rock face and riders need some direction. There’s no other reason for a cairn. Cairn me up has been packed in long enough, with enough riders, and with good signage that the cairns aren’t needed any more, except for the one or two places across rock faces.
  • 1 0
 @dreamlink87: yeah it was kinda a joke. I ride there enough to see all of them get removed on that specific trail. In my parts, they’re called trail ducks.
  • 6 2
 @mikekazimer: Not bike trail related, but our coast is plagued with those. Every frigging tourist thinks he has to build one in that "special place". Its a disgrace. Imagine me coming to some European country and start building those in all over. I would get fined at least, imprisoned at worst. My wife and me destroy as much as those as we can but it's a losing battle as they are everywhere.
  • 1 0
 @birdsandtrees: ha, got it. I was up there today, not too many left!
  • 1 0
 @dreamlink87: hell yeah. See ya up there!
  • 4 3
 @mikekazimer: Cairns mostly have to do with not mtn bikers, but hikers or any other user group that likes to get high and explore the woods. I used to do this over 20 years ago at cannon beach Oregon, stacks of cairns from all the visitors that had been there and enjoyed their connection to such a beautiful place, even psychedelic induced, for sure. This is an actual legitimate thing to do as far as an art and outdoor activity. It has no place in the mtb world, I understand. But don't knock the hippies that like to be out in nature and get creative. There are multiple user groups that are allowed to be out on our trails, and we shouldn't give them shit for being who they are when they are out in nature. As a trail builder, I have many times suffered grief over the inside cheater lines, definitively strava induced but don't mind if different users are out there enjoying the woods in a way that makes them happy.
  • 6 0
 @loam33: Have you ever heard the expression "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints"?
Build your rock stack if you have to, but knock it down when you leave.
Cairns are for waymarking.
Rock stacks all over an otherwise pristine river beach are an eyesore.
  • 5 2
 @notthatfast: its worse than that.....moving rocks to make your narcisstic little stacks, upsets the ecosytem. There are many small crustraceons and life that use those rocks as homes, hunting grounds, etc. 500 dipshits all moving THOUSANDS of rock from where they were, is like Nuking that ecosytem.


so it's not just asinine, it's highly damaging.
  • 2 0
 @notthatfast: I do agree a bunch of stacks on a pristine beach is an eyesore. But so is a mountain bike trail to someone else. We all ride trails that upset a whole lot of creatures and plants when developed and when ridden. He has a very good point - what gives a mountain biker the right to judge someone stacking rocks?
I build trails myself, it's one of my favourite things to do but it also helps me understand how many lives even a single feature or a few meters of trail takes that you don't get to see. And I'm talking about trails built with much consideration. Machine built trails are another beast. I love them, don't get me wrong. I ride them, help build them but not without guilt and definitely not with a right to judge someone piling up a few rocks. A meter of bench cut does more damage than that. A new life starts below the bench cut or a landing of a jump, which may be a stack of rocks bigger than what a casual rocks stacker doesn't move in a lifetime.
It's good to look at things like Cairns with a critical eye, but I'd look at your own footprint before being too harsh.
  • 1 0
 @MrDuck:
Once again, rock stacks and cairns are not the same thing.
I appreciate your concern, but I will continue knocking them over when I see them, thanks.
  • 38 2
 Raw technical trail is a lost art. Speed, berms and jump is the new "in". it's fun and all, but a very different approach of actual mountain biking.
yes, I'm old too.
  • 9 2
 Give me the tech any day. Let the masses have the smooth flow lines.
  • 7 0
 @BermJunky: Can't we have both, even on the same trail??
  • 2 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: sure we can! I don’t make trail rules. Doesn’t often seem to be the case, though.
  • 12 0
 @BermJunky: Username doesn't check out.
  • 3 0
 @eastonwest: hahaha doesn’t mean I don’t like berms. A lot of tech trails I ride have big catch berms!
  • 2 0
 Yes it is...from another old guy.
  • 1 1
 My secret to raw trails is that you can just scratch them in and then ride. So much faster to get to the fun stuff part.
  • 6 0
 @BermJunky: A crazy tech section leading straight into a supportive catch berm is a thing of beauty
  • 1 2
 @JockoJones: Rake and ride 4eva!
  • 1 8
flag peetyjay (Nov 16, 2023 at 23:13) (Below Threshold)
 @eastonwest: So true! And WTF is a catch berm on a tech trail? Now we are just making up terms to fit a narrative that we prefer tech over flow when a username implies loving the latter.
  • 1 1
 @peetyjay: you’re hilarious.
  • 52 18
 There needs to be an end to the trailbuilder is untouchable fantasy you see here. Sometimes what you built didn't work, isn't the most fun way to hit a feature or is maybe just crap. You're not infallible. If everybody is riding a different line from what you built just accept maybe you were wrong and build the new line instead. This includes you Martin.
  • 22 3
 Spot on and spot off in 1 comment. The trailbuilder may have built what they want to ride, you may not like this but someone has put the effort in to build something. Trailbuilders pet peeve. Someone telling them their creation is crap. Even if it is crap to you, it might be to the builder, they might not know better. But they put the hours in to get there, plan a line and build that line. Lots of love, long term trail builder.
  • 4 0
 Sydney Australia trails suffering a lot from this. Most trails are built and maintained by middle to average skill riders. It leads to a lot of effort put into making dumb stuff.
  • 6 4
 Thank you. Both lines can exist. I have never liked this holier than thou attitude about trail lines. Why does it matter? As said, sometimes the line built is not the best. Sometimes, the straight line is the natural, better line. Fix the problem in design that is causing the change and won't have to worry about it. Have a corner on a local trail just like that. But, this is not always the case. I don't cut trails just to cut them or be faster, or easier. I prefer the harder line.
  • 3 0
 Yeah, its pretty easy to tell when something was built by actual riders vs. random volunteers or people who dont know any better. Dallas "treegates" are a prime example of terrible trail building held over from the 90's.

In the end, most trails are just a bit of dirt that can be moved around to make a better riding experience.
  • 2 0
 Perhaps it is that sad that Bellingham is this small, but I am pretty sure I know the bit that has prompted a bunch of comments here and on the podcast (and I've only lived here 6 months). I think the new (straight) line developed over the summer and had to sustain the TuneUp enduro.
But the whole trail is not straight at all, so involves a bunch of turns, and (in certain conditions) worst of all, ROOTS. OG line had a tight righthand corner that definitely rolled over various roots that could slide you a bit. I mean, even in dry, it was a pretty techy maneuver, and probably the toughest move on the top part of the trail. But, that fits the whole soul of the trail. Thus the straight line around that is faster, but for what, another hard brake and turn a few feet later? Maybe it was a MidAtantic rider missing some silly tech stuff after a few months in Bellingham, but I loved how annoying that corner was. You could easily curse the builder for that one move that (like evolved into a more) janky root section, but it always got your full attention.
I rode the trail after Dario mentioned it. I noticed that they cleared anything he put on it. I tried to move more on the straight line. Obvs didn't last. Most recent time the OG main line was filled in with other brush like it was the bandit line.
  • 7 1
 You could easily abuse that logic and dumb down a trail outside of your skill level because you can't get through the first feature. I see it on a trail with 10 somewhat difficult features and people trying to put a ride around 8 of those. Is it because the features are crap, or because you don't have the skill to ride that trail?
How do you know your opinion matters more than the builder's? Not saying the builder knows it all, but most builders I know also ride their features with other people and receive feedback. What if there's a whole league of riders that like it the way it is and you decide to change it because you didn't build it, but you know better?
  • 3 1
 There are "egregious" straight lines as described, and there are straight lines (or even curved lines) that are just better for the flow of the trail.

The worst culprits are hairpin turns that just aren't necessary and kill the flow of the trail.

They were common in old-school trails and sure it is fine if they are really needed to make the trail go where it needs to go... but a smoother line is often better.
  • 2 0
 @Linc: Strewth, applies to most of Oz.
Typically, the local groms build the best trails.
  • 4 0
 If you don’t like the way a trail is built, don’t ride it. If most other riders agree with you, the trail will fall into obscurity.
  • 1 2
 that is music to my ears! So many people pick up a shovel, and never learn anything their entire career because they think just putting in work protects from all criticism
  • 5 0
 Murder-one, I agree with you on the deifying of trail builders (or at least their work) but on the other hand just cutting around existing trails because you feel like it (or can’t ride it) is pretty lame too. There has to be a middle ground.
Also, if the trail is legal there’s a good chance a crap-ton of planning, authorization, and inspection went into building the trail. Bushwhacking alternate lines (especially if they promote erosion or make the trail less safe) pisses off people who signed off on the trail in the first place reducing the probability that said municipality will allow more trail building.
  • 41 11
 Can you please continue to use AI-generated images in articles? There's something satisfying and hilarious about staring at it and finding all of the nonsensical/impossible things it creates, like:
Where is the handlebar?
Where is the rear brake?
Is he wearing two backpacks?
Where are his EYES?!
Strapless helmets are the future?
  • 4 0
 no front brakeline either! i'm assuming that in this ai generated world it runs through the headset somehow.
  • 3 1
 AXS. Rear wheel is skidding, making a terrible mark on the poor trail. AI needs to stop destroying trails!
  • 3 0
 @knutspeed: I love and hate ai for missing things that are seemingly obvious. I got a frying pan the other day with two handles, just cause.
  • 8 0
 Also, is that a potato above the seat tube water bottle cage?
  • 1 0
 @Offrhodes: Aye, it is laddy...
  • 1 0
 @Offrhodes: lol...I think that's a foot
  • 1 0
 @mattmatthew: I have an REI Co-Op ARD 1.1 gravel bike where the front brake (hydraulic) is routed through the fork. I bought it second hand and didn't know this going in. Fortunately, I don't ever see myself changing brakes, but maaaan I hope this doesn't crossover to MTB.
  • 6 0
 it's like an MC Esher drawing...the longer I look the more impossibilities I see. Like what is going on with the crown of the fork? It's both turn and not turn.
  • 8 0
 Ask Taj what he thinks about it.
  • 1 0
 "Where are his EYES?"

LMFAO
  • 1 0
 Just convince yourself that it's supposed to look stupid by calling it "abstract art" haha!
  • 26 7
 Most people do not understand berms, especially the people building them. Braids occur when your corner is so shitty people would rather make their own line than ride yours.

If more builders thought of berms as a way to bend the trail to change your trajectory in a way that conserves momentum, more people would like flow trails.

The vast majority of berms exist because the builder is trying to slow the rider down. And the berms they build don't slow the rider down, they just force the rider to brake. Then the berms become clapped brake bumps. The vast majority of berms I see on flow trails are 180 switchbacks, where you have to brake hard into them, and then have all your momentum killed on the exit of the switchback because the trail immediately cuts back traversing the slope.

Flow trails would require such little maintenance if builders stopped thinking about berms as switchbacks "to slow the rider down" and just thought of a flow trail as a trail that is curved and titled to conserve and embrace the momentum of a rider to require the smallest amount of braking or pedalling possible. When you just copy + paste the same switchback over and over again, people are going to braid your shitty excuse of a trail.
  • 9 4
 I'll add that the shape of what you think a berm is supposed to look like isn't important. The important thing is elevation gain/loss in the berm in relation to the trail before and after it, the trajectory of it. Your berm is a sideways jump lip, if it was a jump where would it send you? Constantly test every part of the trail you are digging, before the machine moves down, READ WHAT YOUR TIRE TRACKS ARE TRYING TO TELL YOU, adjust it, then move on.

Flow trails don't suck, just the vast majority of flow trails suck. If your trail is clapped out after a month, your a shitty builder who probably doesn't test their shit until after everything's built.
  • 4 0
 This is because of grade challenges. Many notable flow trails that are a thousand switchbacks are at ski hills/ bike parks. The average terrain at a ski hill is too steep for an ideal flow trail and they are limited in how wide they can go. So the keep their 6% grade by switchbacking down a corridor.

5620 at Revelstoke is my least favourite trail that people are hyped to ride.
  • 2 0
 @BrianColes: It's about how you place switchbacks, how you break them up into smaller angle changes and place them in different grades relative to the trail.

I had no say on where the line choice went when I built 5620, it was pre-laid out and after that I never built a trail with 180 switchbacks again. Even on steeper slopes. There's a way to do it.
  • 22 0
 Please don't let AI art start becoming commonplace in post icons. Please.
  • 16 1
 Agreed 100%. Straightening out corners drives me crazy. I often stop and close off the developing line, only to see it’s open again on my next ride.
You want to go straight? Ride a gravel bike or a sidewalk. Can’t handle the obstacles? Go ride a trail more to your skip level.
  • 16 1
 People are gonna trammel your favorite trail. They are just trying to get up and down the hill and have fun. Not every clown on 2 wheels can feather every little section of trail with class and grace.

Take a moment and imagine what hikers think of the results of big bikes ripping around their home area. Let alone when they are terrified some shag on a enduro tearing down (or up on an ebike)through their family hike and they gotta scuttle kids and pets out of the way or SPLAT.

Respect other trail users first.
Respect the trail second.
Respect your priveledge to even use the trail or lose it.

I wont shut you down... they will. And they can be nasty. Barb wire at neck height in colorado springs on a a known trail, bikers not welcome on for example, I rode it many times, the news scared me for real. Big rocks in the key transition landing on others, f××kin ugly if you haulin through there. EVEN WORSE Groups lobby to exclude bikes, and guess what? Best trails in the valley closed to mtb.

Tread lightly and be polite. Be smooth and care for others. And yeah... dont cut the corner or make a new pussy route.

Also this article is just gasoline on a fire. This whole thing is common sense.
  • 3 0
 Best post in the entire discussion right here. Just be courteous. Slow down. No one is impressed by your riding except you. Especially in city environments, there are a lot of people all trying to do their own outdoor thing on the trail. We have to share. Its so easy too. Most of my interactions are positive because I SLOW THE F DOWN when I see hikers. Or slow down before blind turns. Or wait for people to clear a section of trail before I dive into it. All things that, like you said, should be common sense. Just be patient, wait your turn, be courteous, slow down, and remember Strava KOMs and IG likes mean nothing.
  • 15 0
 THIS! Very much this. Stop turning glorious trails into 10' wide paths. Problem gets worse and worse as newer riders come down the trail and think the straightline is the actual trail.
  • 2 1
 This happens around here by the trail maintainers just as much, if not more. They blow off every bit of trail and cut down small trees, and tear out roots, making our trails something you can ride golf carts on. This happens on our stste park trails that are "maintained" by local groups. And don't say get involved for change, they don't want to hear it.
  • 15 0
 Cutting corners is the same as using Ai AI-generated images instead of proper art.. Oh wait, that's what you just did!!
  • 15 0
 I couldn't agree more - from an old man who regularly yells at clouds Smile
  • 1 1
 Clouds are bed, really bed!!!! They keep going all over instead of doing the right turns!!!!
  • 1 0
 @dododuzzi: Speaka english very nice.
  • 15 3
 I wonder how much of this trend toward straightening trails is related to the new long/slack geo that PB sells per its industry masters. Most people have a harder time turning these bikes.
  • 6 0
 Small and average size people are now riding bikes as long as those that tall people were riding 10 years ago. Those tall people managed the corners, why is it so much harder for average sized people to manage the same corners on the same size bike?
  • 4 4
 100%, longer and bigger wheels require way bigger curves. The vast majority of flow trail builders couldn't comprehend their curves before bikes got so ridiculously big, and now it's just hopeless. Nothing like riding a brand new flow trail that's already clapped out and braided.
  • 11 0
 @PhillipJ: I think Lee certainly has a point, but your comment made me curious. Using the SC Nomad as an example popular aggressive enduro type frame:
2013 size XL wheelbase: 1174mm
2023 size S wheelbase: 1209mm (35mm more)
  • 8 3
 Exactly my thoughts.
PB praising the "straight line speed" of the bikes above most other traits certainly has a degree of guilt to.
  • 5 3
 @nozes: yes it has driven me crazy how the standard for judging a bike is how fast it goes in a strait line.
  • 1 2
 Absolutely this.
  • 5 5
 Ding ding ding! Funny there was no mention of that in the article. Wagonwheelers cutting corners because they can’t turn
  • 1 0
 That's an interesting point. Trail construction has changed and evolved drastically over the past 20 years. With so many "Flow Trails" out there, it would make sense for the bike industry to build bikes to suit those.
  • 6 1
 @Stumpclumper: Counter point: We might have called these bikes "XL" in 2013, but they were absolutely and unequivocally too small for actual size "XL"-humans.

The actual problem isn't the existence of large and extra large frame sizes. The problem is that most people buy frame sizes that are too big for them. Medium-sized dude should be riding a size medium, not a size large. But because ego and being a manly man and all that, he buys a size large regardless.
  • 4 0
 Come on now, Lee. I see what you're saying, but don't act like bikes aren't infinitely better now than they were ten years ago, because of the development of modern frame geometry. I challenge you to go and ride a 2013 Stumpjumper and a 2023 Stumpjumper back to back and then think again. You'll see what I mean.
  • 3 2
 @Muscovir: there’s a lad near me riding a 2009ish SX trail, that bikes still better than the majority of bikes today for the vast majority of trails around here. Those gangly 500mm plus reach 29’ers don’t work. Lucky that fad has been and gone and bikes aren’t getting longer anymore and some are even getting smaller.
  • 1 0
 @PhillipJ: Plus the bikes have more grip and you can lay them right over, modern bikes are like using cheat codes compared to even the bikes I learned on. Even a long bike is easy to get around a corner.
  • 1 0
 @Muscovir: I mean, I’m currently riding a bike (tremendously “conservative” by today’s standards) which is 5” longer in the wheelbase than my first 6 or 8 bikes. Most 2023 model bikes, whether enduro, trail, or even XC, are suggesting me onto a bike another 3-4 inches longer than that! That ain’t nothing.
  • 2 6
flag leelikesbikes (Nov 17, 2023 at 8:27) (Below Threshold)
 @PhillipJ: When the bike is too big relative to the rider, the rider loses range of motion to create the needed angles. All the details at www.llbmtb.com
  • 2 2
 @luckynugget: Exactly! Back in the day, it was all about agility. Now it's stability -- which can also be expressed as "difficult to turn, especially if you lack skill."
  • 2 0
 @Muscovir: Exactly. But we all need to ignore the letter size. It's meaningless.
  • 2 2
 @Muscovir: The bikes ARE way better! I've been on every Enduro since the first one in 2002. But they have to fit the rider to work properly. In many lines, like Specialized, people need to go down a size. In other lines (Yeti, Transition, etc) if you are average sized all of the sizes are too long for optimal handling. All the details in the book Dialed and at www.llbmtb.com.
  • 11 0
 There is a big assumption here that trails are well built. There are a lot of trails out there that were built poorly or maybe started good, but degraded over time. As a builder, it is easier to blame riders for riding the trail "wrong" than to accept the fact that maybe you didn't do a good job to begin with. There's a big difference between a trail that was built and flows as a jank tech trail and a fast trail that has one jank turn that comes out of nowhere and was never intended.
  • 14 1
 While we're at it a reminder to QUIT DUMBING DOWN THE TRAIL FEATURES in general.
  • 10 0
 I've seen many of these straight lines that Mike is talking about and it's definitely frustrating. Our local riding population tends to be heavily over-biked, so while I do sympathize with the nightmare that is navigating a modern 170mm travel 29er around a tight corner, Galbraith is not (and never will be) the place for monster trucking.

At least here, tighter corners help keep trails in better condition over the long haul. The roughest trails in town are the high speed ones that people just brake drag down the whole way...
  • 4 0
 I remember back in the day when Galbraith was just a maze of tightly twisting trails. It suited the NORBA geometry of the bikes back then.
  • 10 0
 There's a quote at the trailhead of one of our OG man bike trails that reads: " Don't wish the trail was easier, wish that you were better." I like to keep that one in mind when I'm struggling through some tough stuff.
PS: Let's keep the AI garbage out of at least one place in the internet please, use a real photo, a real artist, or not bother.
  • 10 1
 Some of us live in areas with "newer" or "younger" riding communities. While I love to see the sport grow I'm sadly seeing it grow without the guidance of seasoned riders. This issue is not only being seen in the trails but in the politics of advocacy. A common phrase in our area when more of the seasoned riders suggest that logs not be cut up or that rock gardens not be dumbed down is the always classic "MAYBE IF YOU'D COME TO TRAIL DAYS YOU COULD HAVE A SAY". I'm all for helping local advocacy groups - be it donating time or money. But in our area, these newer riders don't seem to like hearing that trails should be hard so the trails get easier. It's a very sad reality across the country and it's happening at a time when IMBA and local advocacy chapters are blowing wads of cash on easy, no skill required, flow trails. Hate me for saying but it's true. And while I 100% appreciate what these trails have done for the sport in growing ridership, the very existence of such trails has virtually killed the concept of progression. If our sport can't offer riders more challenge as they move past the "bunny bump" trails than mountain biking, long-term, is screwed. We'll see major trail systems change up to accommodate the crowds while core riders turn to poaching. It's happening in my area. Our local trails are "occasioned" by core riders and many are already starting to go quiet. IMBA needs to either part ways with Wiens and find some fresh blood that understands this sport was always meant to be challenging or we're going to see trails get turned over to hikers and horses just so the park systems can keep getting those hard earned dollars for programming.

This isn't meant to be an attack on flow trails, advocacy or newer riders. It's simply stating an unpopular truth and that's that our trails are notably easier today than they were 10 years ago. We've created this culture of - if we can't ride it than it needs to be changed. I want to climb Mt Everest but can't climb - am I to advocate that an escalator be installed to get my ass to the top. No. It's no different at ski resorts and yet, for some reason, the mountain bike community struggles to wrap it's head around this tricky idea that some things are hard - and should always BE hard. @mikekazimer - huge props for using this platform to address this issue. It's encouraging to see this conversation being had and hopefully it leads to the sport starting to grow instead of stagnating in simplicity. Respect.
  • 10 0
 Well when the bike 'industry' says that ebikes are the future I think the final nails are already in the coffin. MTB is supposed to be hard. Not about how many laps you can get by straight lining corners, OR by having a machine do the pedaling. It's all the same dumbing down of the sport.
  • 4 1
 @BarryWalstead: and @scrawnydog absolutely. It's too late. Many trail orgs have adopted the culture of inclusivity. Taken to one end ( and it's usually take that way) it's bias is towards a lowest common denominator.

Ergo sanctioned trails get made easier. Unsanctioned trails are left creative to a trailbuilder's vision
  • 2 6
flag RevedOut (Nov 16, 2023 at 19:34) (Below Threshold)
 @BarryWalstead:
Agreed! MTB is supposed to be hard but not everyone shares the same perspective of what hard is. Some riders like to race downhill and straightening out the corners is a part of racing. There is nothing wrong with a hard climb but some would rather use the e-assist so they can focus on going hard downhill through the gnarliest rock garden they can find. Don’t knock someone just because their goals and perspective of hard differs from yours. Live and let live. In the end we all love bikes and being in the woods.
  • 1 0
 I guess there are three people out there whose feelings got hurt. I know there are a bunch more out there too. Make sure you hit the down vote button if you are offended that someone else has a different POV than you do.
  • 14 4
 Also known locally as E-Bike lines. Same sketch: Drive all the way to the trail to get it done as quickly and as easily as possible. 'Yeah boy'.
  • 3 8
flag emptybe-er (Nov 16, 2023 at 20:17) (Below Threshold)
 29 line
  • 10 0
 Wow. Good thing trailbuilders and maintainers pretty much do their own thing and don't check in on Pinkbike comments. Thanks for blocking those braids @mikekazimer
  • 9 0
 Proper drainage solves a LOT of braiding issues from riders avoiding puddles
  • 11 1
 You're doing the Lord's work out there, Mike. Keep it up.
  • 6 0
 Corners are trail features like jumps and drops and thus are something to be respected and savored. Not all need to be perfect berms either. I purposefully leave some corners rocky and off camber on the trails I build because they are challenging to navigate.
Like a rock climbing route, unlocking the "puzzle" of the trail is what makes it fun and gratifying when you do unlock it.
  • 7 1
 Yes yes and yes!!..and all the ebike advocates out there that say ebikes do no more harm or damage to trails than bike... your wrong. ... every trail I have ridden has drastically changed since the advent of ebikes...big wallowy turns .. increased breaking bumbs more irosion ..the worst is the turns you guys can't make tight turns blow out every corner ..most can't ride anyways..so that's prolly the problem..beat go ride fire roads or moto trails ..haha ..and yes I don't care about my spelling.
  • 4 3
 Lol. Your rant is so laughable. I ride both eMtb and analog bikes and I can thrash a trail just the same on either bike. As I’ve said before in different threads, it’s the rider that does the damage to a trail, not the bike. I choose to ride respectfully regardless which bike I take out so the bike is a non-issue. As for break bumps in a turn, cry me a river. It’s mountain biking! Come ride Snowshoe next summer, that’ll make a man out of you.
  • 6 0
 With in the past few years it seems trail etiquette has waned. It's nice to see more articles about this subject and trail advocacy. I know bustin' berms and schralpin' tires get clicks it would be nice to see more responsible habit focus.
  • 8 0
 I blame the OEs for equipping Code Rs on too many builds.
  • 4 0
 This is wild.. and it has nothing to do with trails, straight lines or corners.. what's wild is this article was tailormade (in my opinion) for discussion on the comment side of things.
Its occured to me (clearly with this article) that the humble PB comment board is something of a sub culture unto itself within the MTB community as a whole. Like a blow-off valve from the real (sometimes shitty / depressing world).
Anyways. Ya - corners are fun, lets keep them.
  • 7 3
 Seen it all at my local forest loops. 29ers an gravel snobs, can't corner won't corner. An mobilitE bike abusers that derestrict an just won't slow down out of belligerence. Gonna get down voted to fuck for this but, it's fckng TRUE
  • 10 2
 Its E-bikes. Dont beat around the bush. Its E-bikes.
  • 4 1
 So much this. I have devoted a considerable amount of time and effort towards battling local trail pirates and their Strava lines. I'm pretty sure I never see them at Trail Care, but they seem all too keen to fuck up the sustainability of the trails in pursuit of... whatever their goals actually are.
  • 4 1
 E-Bikes. I expect lots of pushback. But the fact is is that eBikes are bring heaps of new riders to the trails the majority of whom aren't experienced and skilled — many are starve obsessed — enough to ride roots and tight turns, and so cut the trails and do stupid $#!‡ to keep up, or get PRs. I'm not talking about every eBike rider. I'm talking about the hoards, who show up in the dozens, which bluetooth speakers and the whole shebang.
  • 4 1
 Well said. Agreed. One exception. Cairns. Cairns are often used as markers along high mountain paths in Scotland and the Lake District. They can be a life saver, particularly in poor weather, marking the path in otherwise featureless terrain. If you see one getting low. Stick a stone on it.
  • 6 0
 I think Mike was describing fake cairns (built for fun, not marking a path), which can be dangerous because they are the opposite of what you described.
  • 3 0
 Great piece. This pull quote captures it, "Cornering is one of those skills that most riders will never truly perfect (myself included), and it's a big part of what makes riding so much fun. Mountain biking is supposed to be hard, at least some of the time. Every ride is like a puzzle, a quest to unlock the flow and find the cleanest way through a section."
  • 4 0
 Just came to the comments section to say I rode Bellingham for the first time a few weeks ago. I see why people move there. Absolutely awesome. Also, no corners were cut when I rode there.
  • 2 0
 I been riding for over 30 years and trails change, they get better and sometimes they don't but what's nice more and more people are getting out of the house from the video games and riding. Placing rocks over logs is not bad thing it just a change some kids or someone wanted to make a jump or what ever. it means you can hit it with more speed and fly a little higher!! If you don't go off to the side of the rock's and you can still Oille it. I love seeing people outside enjoying themselves. I made ton's of trails and jumps over my life of riding some took and some didn't here in Patapsco Maryland. One thing it sure in life it changes from day to day so enjoy.
  • 4 2
 We have a local who shares their opinions on Facebook from time to time. This rider disguises themself with a fake name and profile photo from a t.v. show character. This local rider tried to argue that if enough trail users cut a corner, ride around roots, or change the trail footprint as a whole, that it means the trail should be updated to legally reflect that change because the riders "have spoken". Facepalm
  • 7 0
 This is common unfortunately
  • 4 0
 Ditto. Our solution is to have a couple of people work on blocking it. Two person boulders and logs too heavy for one person and it'll never be a braid again.
  • 7 7
 nice, now put that same effort into finding out why people don't want to ride your berms.
  • 3 0
 The line is not between being so f*cking lazy can't turn, and building berms everywhere.

Going to guess it's because I've never built a berm. Book
  • 5 8
 @donaarblitzen: I like putting logs, boulders in, then nailing them together with pretty big spikes so if someone tries to saw them apart it screws up their saw.

Punji sticks in the straight line so line cutters get impaled is a nice final touch
  • 2 1
 @leelau: Hayduke Lives!
  • 6 0
 @leelau: Pfft lol

Pressure plates that trigger poison darts and release a house size boulder that chases you down the trail is how the old timers did it.
  • 1 2
 @donaarblitzen: I have an idea why people might braid your trails. I don't think you could build a good berm anyways
  • 7 0
 This! Embrace the Jank.
  • 6 1
 100% agree. It confuses me that people go mountain biking, then look for short cuts to make their ride end sooner!?
  • 3 1
 @mikekazimer So we've established that we don't want people straight lining corners. But how do you stop them? I've had times where I've been in a battle with some mystery person for MONTHS. Every time I ride the trail I drag branches and stumps onto their cheater line, only to fine the next time I ride, they have dragged them onto the main trail which is super dangerous. Once people realize its a battle, they dig their heels in, it is infuriating. Wish there was an easy solution here...
  • 1 2
 Reminds me of a time on our local network when two 55 year old men were battling over whether a log-over should be mandatory.
They almost brought their guns into the forest to duke it out like the old west.
And now? The entire zone is a clear cut with zero trails.
Cut corners, or don't
who gives a flying F.
Just don't lose sight of why you love the sport;
Those stupid, fat, off the couch lazy button pushers can't have access to it.
Oh, wait....
  • 2 0
 Was on a group ride and a lead rider was super focused on his Strava time on a mostly easy trail that had a pretty difficult embedded rock garden thrown in. He complained about the rocks. A couple of days later 'someone' took a sledge hammer to at least a couple of hundred of the embedded rocks and you could clearly see the break marks and fresh rock from the hammer. Another day later the same rider posted his KOM on the segment. Can't even wrap my head around this behavior.
  • 1 0
 Yes we have a local rider who will do anything for a top ten strava time and has been known to dig up roots ,saw off branches ,move and smash rocks and even knocked a very old dry stone wall down to build a fresh trail .These are the kind of riders that cause all the problems with land access and just bugger off and start again in a different area when problems occur
  • 2 0
 Right after reading this, I had an Ig post come up with a couple trying to ride a difficult trail. This girl had bars twice as wide as her shoulders, and her bro BF was telling everyone how wrong they are for trying to point out the bars being too wide. But then you look at their account and see that they only like to blast straight down a hillside, and you see the problem. People don't want to corner, and they don't want obstacles, they just want to go straight and fast. These people would be better served on road bikes where you can go WAY faster down a mountain.
  • 3 1
 One thing all of us boomers have missed in the comments so far: braids and "dumbing down" are also opportunities to engage newer riders and possibly *gasp* future trail builders. Bring them in and show them why it was built a certain way and how to do it correctly.

We had a prolific trailbuilder locally that would almost fist fight new people that changed his trails. Is that how you bring people into your community? He also left the organization partially because people wouldn't help maintain trails. lol

Bikes are changing, and so is our demographic. Engage people into the community and educate them. Chastising them will accomplish absolutely nothing besides satisfying your need to shake your fist.

Disclaimer: I agree with Kaz
  • 1 0
 Yup. This is part and parcel with “growing the sport.”

Bite the hand that feeds…
  • 5 0
 I guess Mike isn't keen on Stonehenge
  • 2 0
 Yea, Mike strikes me as very Anti-prehistoric-sky-calendar-things, loves round turns though!
  • 2 1
 This trail has been totally ruined by exactly what this article talks about.

It's literally a "flow trail" with cheater lines through every other corner. So now it ... has no flow =/

www.trailforks.com/trails/thorn-alley

Maybe I'll print out this article and leave copies of it over all the cheater lines on this trail (actually not a bad idea, a sticker maybe?)
  • 1 0
 If our trail orgs have a component that involves bidding on and building new trail networks is it safe to assume that they will likely build trails that require more material, machinery, labor and upkeep?

I wonder if it's time to separate the groups that are doing advocacy from those that are doing the bidding and building.
  • 10 9
 Unpopular opinion: Ban roosting, cutties, schralping, etc, so that those of us with a little (lot) less talent still have a decent berm to ride instead of playing "dodge the bomb hole" and "avoid the collapsing high line" all the time.
  • 6 3
 This is such a pet peeve of mine. You go to ride some beautiful flow trails someplace like Whistler and then get those bomb holes in every corner. And you hear people in the lift lines referring to them as 'braking bumps' and I want to scream that it isn't the least skilled riders trying to control speed, but instead highly skilled riding like ass hats.
  • 8 7
 Advanced riders doing roosting, cutties, schralping, etc are probably causing far less total wear and tear on berms than riders who ride the brakes through the berm
  • 2 0
 Let's also ban brakes all together too. No more braking bumps!
  • 1 0
 @ridenwc1: please, can we. I want trails with Nascar oval size banked corners so I can go wide open top to bottom.
  • 3 1
 @j-t-g: no.

You are incorrect in thinking myself or anyone else cannot tell the difference in advanced moves tearing up berms as the braking bumps leading INTO said berms.

It's always the 'advanced' riders making those bomb holes.
  • 2 1
 Trails start with flat turns, then berms are built on the outsides, so OG line is now the "inside" and considered 'straight lining'. Optium line selection is 90% of the fun of riding for me. The other 10 is blasting berms haha.
  • 5 0
 I skipped the curvy long text and straight-lined down to the comments.
  • 1 0
 Agree wholeheartedly, and I also appreciate that you pointed out that it's not always people TRYING to cheat for strava or whatever.

I took a "cheater line" on one of my favorite trails for the first year I rode it, because it was so well-traveled that it looked like that was where the trail went. I only realized that it wasn't part of the intended trail after somebody did exactly what you did – dragged logs over it.

Since then I've always ridden the intended line (which is much harder and slower), but people keep moving the logs away and re-opening the "cheat" line. I would guess that the people who ride it are about 10% intentional cheaters and 90% people who are just taking what seems to be the easiest/most obvious line.

Short of a permanent sign that says "this isn't the f*ckin trail, go left" I'm not sure what can be done about it, though.
  • 1 0
 Where's the satisfaction of climbing all the way to 133rd on the strava leaderboard if I have to cheat to get there? I actually have the opposite problem, I'm competitive and want to get top tens etc but also have very limited riding time so I almost never choose the easier faster line.
  • 3 0
 I see a cheat line...I block it off with the most forest debris possible. Most times it sticks. If not, I just block it again.
  • 1 0
 In regards to the previously posted OUTSIDE article about the murder. Every time you post an article for outside magazine, I automatically skip it. I'm even less likely to click on your story than on EEb related articles. Go away, leave our precious PINKBIKE alone already!
  • 5 4
 trailbuilder here. unless corner cutting erodes the built trail (which it often doesn't), why should anyone care how anyone else rides? IMO it's egotistical for a builder to insist people ride things exactly as designed, as it seems that if they don't it is taken as an affront to their work. mountain biking is a creative activity, and prescribing one way to ride a trail is a detriment to the freedom and expression of the sport.

arguments of environmental damage ring hollow and hypocritical too, seeing as the builder spends a lot of their time hacking away topsoil
  • 1 1
 Yup.
  • 1 0
 The primary reason I concur is that all too often I have seen trails built by builders that knew what they were doing get shortcuts that either circumvent drainage or change the built in flow required to clear features. With the former the shortcuts lead to erosion and subsequent damage to the area near the trail which gives the sierra club crowd ammunition for their quest to ban all humans from nature. The latter causes people who are riding a trail for the first time to either decide the trail is awkward and janky because they took one strava line thinking it was the actual line and now the trail doesn’t work or worse yet: they get injured. Either way the trail suffers.
Now to be clear I am all for keeping trails maintained and relevant and that sometimes requires a little redesign but run your ideas past a couple local reputable trail builders (or better yet, someone who built or maintains the trail you want to modify). They may well embrace your idea and if not ask why and be open to the answer. I learned a lot about the engineering behind trail building by doing just that.
  • 1 0
 Sometimes they’re chicken lines. People can’t ride a feature so ride around it, but then this new line becomes eroded and someone makes a new line. Next thing you know you have a maze of shit lines and nobody knows where the original good line is. Kung Fu Walrus I’m talking about you.
  • 1 0
 There's a ton of shit mtn bikers on this planet, and with all these nice ebikes out there, prepare for more of them. Build your own trails and make them gnarly enough to put weak ass bitches in their place. If these mouth breathers find your hidden trail, you don't need to be polite to them, as you should on municipal trails.

Disappointing to hear this is going on in Kaz's locale, as most of us consider the northwest (and all of Canada) to be the highest levels of mtn biking.
  • 4 0
 Bring 'm to me steep, muddy, rooty and rocky.
  • 14 9
 Must be the e-bikers...
  • 48 6
 Whilst Strava most definitely started this , Ebikers are 100% perpetuating and amplifying the problem. Now before I get lambasted by experienced mtbers who now ride Ebikes ... you arent the problem. The problem is the massive influx of new unskilled, uneducated and by definition lazy , riders who haven't a scooby about any mtb etiquette . I'm talking about the cigarette smoking , litter dropping vape hitting, boiler suit inbreds that barge past you on the climbs to then mince and skid back down whichever trail they deem to be rad.

I've been building & maintaining trails for over 20yrs in numerous areas and the speed of natural trail destruction is at levels never ever seen before ........one Ebiker doing 3 party Laps to one biker's single lap is causing its own problems , but add inexperience , a multiplication of rider numbers by a factor of 10, on 55lb bikes they cant handle, riding in all manner of shit conditions then we have a serious issue escalating at a rate of knots that trail associations cant even keep pace with.

Having personally witnessed 3 slow riders on full fat Ebikes straight-line through the brash after me spending days fixing the corners they're missing, and me stopping them to say waddafukyedoing , they looked at me like i was insane and replied "but that's what we always do its easier than the tight corners" .... ive seen this numerous times in umpteen places , and its not just natural techy trails getting the moron treatment, trail centres with winding uphill sections are also getting the moron straight-line treatment , within weeks Scotland's flagship new trail centre at Tarland had to put social media posts out begging folk to stop straight-lining the climbs they'd spent a year beautifully forming. I wonder what sort of bike can go straight up a hill that requires sustained 500watts

My only hope now is this is just a blip caused by the huge uptake on biking during Covid The lazy folk will eventually fuk off and the one's interested in the sport will learn as they personally witness the destruction of their own trails. Eventually the rate of new uneducated/ still learning riders will go back to a more manageable level. ..... I hope.
  • 5 1
 @forkbrayker: you had me at fuk off
  • 6 4
 100% ebikers.
You should see the lines and bike parks those pesky e bikers are building in Scotland (only spent 25 hours of my week off, eebing it to the trails to dig this week).

Thanks all trail builders in the north of Scotland, your all legends. Building some awesome stuff.
  • 8 5
 @forkbrayker: nah, all ebike riders are the problem.
They aren't bicycles. They are motorized.

The old guys and girls need to buck up and get fit like everyone ever did until just a few years ago. The idea anyone needs an ebike is patently insane.
  • 3 0
 @betsie: as stated before you are not the problem . You are an in an absolutely tiny minority of highly talented + highly motivated people.... another would be Ray at 'Feldy. Trailbulders are few and far between, Ebiking ones even less so.

Whilst EBikes ..... like guns, are not the problem directly, they do lower the barrier of entry to biking down to the point where folk are smoking whilst cycling up hill .... where are those *ag butts going. In my litter bag a few weeks later is where. .....ad infinitum on other bad habits . If you think this is the Hollywood version then come down to glentress or the golfy on a weekend ....the numbers are upwards of 500 riders a day , 50% eebs 50% bikes all the overweight, smoking , vaping litter dropping ones cutting straight uphill lines are in one category .

It's not the experienced riders that's the issue..... its the inexperienced, uneducated riders ( both eeb and bike riders) new to the sport in their hordes that is the issue.

We hold public dig days ... theres over 440 riders on the FB page for this one little forest I ride & dig at , if i turn up on a sunday yer looking at up to 100 folk riding the majority on Ebikes party lapping a cluster of 1 min natural DH tracks .......if we get 5 people turn up for a dig day it's a minor miracle . ... both eeb and bike riders will turn up , but the most telling factor is not the type of bike they ride but the age and/or experience of those few that come to lend a hand . Its slowly changing though last week we had 2 dad's bring along 3 young teenagers agers with them .... so like always the future looks promising
  • 2 1
 @forkbrayker: we didn't see that many EEBs at GT or the golfe last weekend and it was only us riding Yair. Yair was my favourite.
The volume of riders and diversity is very different to up here though. We are lucky and don't have the rider numbers of the tweed valley. The trail I am working on just now only gets a handful of laps a year due to how many trails we have for our low population.
  • 3 0
 @betsie: well at the moment I can guarantee you they are all at the new Glentress stuff. lol. The FLS reckoned over 1000 riders on the opening day . I went a week after and counted 100 folk in the queue for the main red descent .

I'm acutely aware of my anti ebike stance , half of that is my age refusing to accept change and doing mental gymnastics to justify the hate , the other half is however embedded in my own very real experiences. I don't intend to create division or fuel hate but there is a historic problem that is 10x worse than it was a decade ago.

Thay said, It looks to me that the North East has an incredibly good scene , with respectful riders & landowners alike.
This creates leaps and bounds forward in progress due to that. Whatever you guys are doing keep doing it.
  • 1 2
 @forkbrayker: Us more enlightened souls might take the time to stop wanging on about ESO on Pinkbike and engage with some of these punters and enlighten them. They may become our brethren.
  • 2 0
 @iamloz: yer no wrong theres definitely better uses of my time....but lifes a funny thing where we are allowed to care about more than just one thing , and (for me anyway) those various passions are expressed in a lot more physical places with tangible outcomes than they are in digital places without substance.
  • 4 2
 Fuck Strava generally. Your KOM doesn't matter. Straightlined or in the strictest adherence to the true trail. It. Does. Not. Matter.
  • 1 1
 free phone app. not a race.
  • 11 9
 Wow a bunch of people who have probably never helped build trails complaining about how trails are built. First world complaining:
  • 6 3
 Wow - a comment from someone who has probably never worked diligently on a trail only to have it ruined by riders who can't hang. First world gripe about a real world problem.
  • 8 1
 @scrawnydog: Fact I build or maintain trails almost every other day and have been for for the last 10 years. But yeah most people on here are complaining about too many berms, lack of berms, too much tech, and not enough tech. It’s all arm chair building trail building. Most of the people responding to this article don’t build.
  • 3 0
 I agree,

I also think going faster is unnecessary, and will ride my "slower" 27.5" wheels forever Smile
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer I agree 100% EXCEPT for a single reroute on Happy Hour where there is an awkward uphill turn with a root down the middle that absolutely saps your speed. The cut line around that I had less of a problem with.
  • 3 0
 @mikekazimer if you want a hand covering up some of the aforementioned spots on galbraith, i'm your guy.
  • 4 0
 Yup/\ Obvious answer is obvious, but really if you place a solid 2 man boulder or log to block a braid it will stay put.

Then break up the compacted soil so vegetation can regrow, plant a couple of plants like ferns for original aesthetics, voila.

We've done it many times, as long as the obstacle is sunk in and heavy as f*ck, it will permanently restore the line.
  • 2 2
 What's amusing to me is living in places like the PNW and complaining about trails. Ride something else then. I live in flat-ass Chicago, there are plenty of dumbed down and boring trails here. I ride other trails that I find more fun. I find it hard to believe you can't find anything good to ride. Not everything is for everyone, at some point you are basically complaining about showing up at a Taylor Swift concert and not hearing any brutal grindcore.
  • 2 0
 THANK YOU! I see this too much on Galbraith. I was sad the first time I saw the line straight through the S-turns on Cheech and Chongs.
  • 1 0
 We don’t really have to worry about this where I live. Copmoba will be removing any obstacles, rock chutes, turns, roots etc. so that the riders don’t have to make b lines
  • 1 1
 I honestly don't think that any riders (that are reading this, or any other mountain bike website/forum/chatroom) are to blame for "modifying" our trails. I believe it is the "occasional" rider, or the family that shows up with their quiver of "big box store" bikes. Through either pure naivety, or downright arrogance, they think it's ok to cut a root, or move a rock, so little (or big) junior gets his participation ribbon.
  • 3 0
 Nope, judging by the comments plenty of the misguided individuals causing these problems are indeed on here.
  • 1 1
 Don't forget all those mullets that are needing to skid through turns due to the rear wheel catching up. Some mullet riders are really smooth and good, but so many others seem to just trash the corners. I'm curious how popular mullets would be if there weren't as many berms around these days. There is obviously corner trashing going on with non-mullets, but I see it so much with riders on mullets.
  • 1 0
 damn, the comment section here is a steaming pile of shit Big Grin I am not surprised by this community... it's all about me, me, and ME Big Grin Maybe people's opinions should stay with them Big Grin
  • 1 0
 FTR, if you happen to be near Slinger, WI and you want to see a good example of alternative lines done right hit up Double Dragon. Brilliant trail (especially for what the locals had to work with)
  • 4 1
 Improve your skill, not the trail!
  • 5 11
flag luckynugget (Nov 16, 2023 at 14:21) (Below Threshold)
 lets improve trails too, because they probably fucking suck if braiding is an issue.
  • 3 0
 OW, an AI picture . . . watch this space Wink
  • 2 0
 So, if everyone in the comments agrees with this commentary - who is straightening out our trails?
  • 1 1
 Straightening trails is like boning big girls... only good until you get caught doing it.
  • 4 1
 Well said Mike. Thank you!!!
  • 3 0
 This is what Scott thinks a wireless cockpit looks like
  • 3 0
 Hearing all the praise for raw tech trails, you guys know what’s up!
  • 3 0
 Didn't see that rock stack haymaker coming....
  • 10 8
 Literally never ever use AI art again. Pay for real artists. What a disgrace.
  • 2 0
 Or is it "Visually" never use AI again?
  • 1 0
 Most of the images used oh here aren't professionally shot, but are simply the author or a other Pinkbike employee I believe.
Or some image from the company the article is about.
So honest question here, where is the harm? No 'artist' is being left out. Am I missing something else?
  • 3 0
 Somebody should talk to the French about their “line”
  • 1 0
 Line of retreat?
  • 4 1
 The only trail builders I answer to are the cows
  • 4 1
 REAL mountain bikers don't braid trails.
  • 5 6
 Couple sensible replies to a completely out of touch Karen Kaz, and all got downvoted to shiz. Seems like PB paid a bot farm to push an agenda. Pulling logs onto trails is what some old homosoveticus farts are doing in an area where I live. They imagine that if their house is close to a public forest, they get to decide what is and is not allowed in that forest. Never thought that I would see PB advocate for the same tactics.
  • 3 0
 Let me guess, you like building unsactioned features and lines and you don't like it when other people interfere with it. ITs mY FoREst, I caN BuiLD AnYthING ANywhErE I waaaaaaaa Douffus.
  • 1 1
 @freestyIAM: Wrong guess.
Douffus, is that a signature?
  • 2 0
 Amen brother @mikekazimer !!

And you can add dumbed down, flow trails to this rant...
  • 1 0
 The quality of bike has lowered the barrier for entry into the sport, so it's basically possible to ride a black trail without any prior experience now.
  • 3 0
 “I only turn when things get in my way” - Shane McConkey
  • 1 2
 Yawn - Old news KAZ ! Ride arounds have been an issue for 20+ years ! Perhaps focus more on solutions than lecturing people on your perceived MTB wisdom. Idea - ask some of the YT creators for their perspective since they have created their own community - audience and not getting a free ride on the coat tail of the PB platform
  • 3 0
 Easy times create weak men.
  • 1 0
 Many of these straight lines are made by eBikers climbing straight up trails that they should be descending on aBikes like normal people do.
  • 3 2
 Go ride your bike and stop whining about petty nonsense. There's always going to be people that break the rules and spoil the fun.
  • 1 0
 Thanks for the read @mikekazimer
That first pic brings out the old man in me.
  • 3 0
 PREACH
  • 3 1
 Doing gods work @mikekazimer! Keep it up!
  • 4 18
flag owl-X (Nov 16, 2023 at 13:48) (Below Threshold)
 there is no god. dude isn't satisfied with angering youtubers, now he's taking it to the fast guys! first Mike fades away, this Mike looking for a blaze out!
  • 5 1
 @owl-X: Hahaha. I didn’t capitalize god for a reason...Have you considered taking a corning clinic?
  • 2 1
 @Tsoxbhk: like, an internship at owens corning?

is there a god?
  • 2 1
 @owl-X: Nope and nope.
  • 2 1
 @Tsoxbhk: kerning?
  • 3 0
 Amen
  • 1 0
 In fact, getting all touchy feely would be good for the mountain bike community. Embrace it.
  • 1 3
 Not that I'm advocating trail braiding at all, but the irony is also that in BC, people moan about trail braiding, but in most instances, the forest around the trail will be clear cut at any point in the future, as the majority of trails are on crown owned tree lots!
  • 4 0
 I know. The irony of obsession over a small bit of Forest when the government will eventually whack it all down anyway. And it’s usually the government with the furrowed brows lecturing mtbers about sustainability.
  • 3 1
 Similar thing to those that go around puddles making the trail 6ft wide
  • 1 0
 The old man is feeling another level of pain with his calve doing the taco-macarena.
  • 5 3
 Wonder which YouTuber will take offence to this
  • 2 2
 Hmmm… then why post all the World Cup track walks? I don’t do Strava but I do choose the faster of two lines. Does that make a bad human?
  • 5 6
 You are bumbling down, so you have no right to choose the line. Pros and PB editors are smashing it, so they get all the lines they want. Simple
  • 1 0
 All the trail braiding current surprise me. Modern mountain bikers want things as easy as possible because they're lazy.
  • 2 1
 Mood making. How pathetic. Wheres the evidence its Strava users? What's the issue anyway. Can you explain once more?
  • 2 1
 @mikekazimer Is that cable tourism in the photo of your future self?
  • 1 2
 malheureusement le Québec n'est pas épargné par cette procédure....unfortunately Quebec is not spared from this procedure
  • 2 1
 Hey NSMB, bring back "Hey Neighbor!" - that was a fun video series.
  • 2 0
 Couldn’t agree more!!!
  • 3 2
 Any one disagreeing with this, sure sign of a lack of skills :'D
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer It's good to see the future you riding a HT.
  • 2 2
 @mikekazimer thanks for this! waiting here some European Trail builders to comment too..
  • 2 1
 error 404: people for BUILDING turns not found
  • 1 0
 Snipers in the trees. It's the only solution.
  • 1 0
 I agree. So do you have shovel and rakes?
  • 1 0
 "...you're just fast, I rode the whole corner!"
  • 3 2
 Trail braiding is God's way of saying you build shitty berms.
  • 2 1
 French route
  • 6 5
 Blame Strava.
  • 4 3
 I thought it was Strava, but I now think its Ebikers who can't be bothered to steer.
  • 1 2
 malheureusement le Québec n'est pas épargné par cette procédure ... Quebec is not spared from this procedure
  • 13 13
 Stop telling people how to ride their bikes. MYOB
  • 2 3
 They got to rationalize all those long slack bikes have been selling that suck in turns.
  • 2 1
 Sing it.
  • 3 4
 A rare moment where I think we can all agree…

If you don’t…you’re a squid.
  • 3 3
 I thought line choice was a good part of mountain biking ..
  • 3 4
 Unpopular opinion, but inside lines don't prevent you from taking the outside corner...
  • 4 6
 50 pound Bropeds piloted by people with spaghetti arms-sure fire recipe for straightening curves.
  • 6 7
 BLAME STRAVA.
  • 8 0
 Local dude blatantly straight lines cutting massive sections of trails out, then brags about being fast.
  • 3 2
 The problem is mostly over-biked bros that have no bike handling skills
  • 6 7
 Whine less, ride more.
  • 7 10
 Yall are crazy. Go ride your bike and stop worrying about what line other people are taking.
  • 2 4
 Seriously. Especially if it not eroding or clapping out your preferred lines.
  • 3 5
 Bikes are for you, ride them how you want.
  • 7 10
 What’s wrong with two lines.. who cares take the one you want
  • 2 5
 genius
  • 2 4
 underrated comment
  • 5 6
 Some people get hard from being able to tell other people what to do
  • 1 1
 This philosophy is based on selfishness, no? That’s only gonna work if you’re riding on your own private trails.
  • 2 2
 @Dreifert: selfishness is imagining that some people have more rights to public forests and trails than others.. if you want the trail to be only one line then buy private land, and build it there..
  • 2 0
 @GZMS: I once knew of a high up construction manager (big civil construction company) that got off on firing people. Skidded a bunch of guys one morning then stormed off, got caught minutes later jerking off in the tool crib.
  • 1 0
 @GZMS: I meant that if the trail is the trail then making or contributing to a second line is a self-serving decision in regards to “take the one you want”.
Below threshold threads are hidden







Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv65 0.071122
Mobile Version of Website