Descending Despite running a relatively stiff spring rate and firm compression damping, I immediately noticed the rear suspension is super active and supple when dropping into a rough descent. The bike feels stuck to the floor and never gets hung up or caught out even in the roughest rock sections or rapid-fire braking bumps. It's refreshingly quiet too, which isn't necessarily an indicator of performance, but it certainly contributes to a feeling of composure few bikes rival. The rear wheel feels glued to the floor, tracking the ground with real finesse.
How much of that is down to the lack of a derailleur? The gearbox's roughly 2 kg of extra sprung mass no doubt helps to dull vibrations in the chassis due to
its own rigid inertia, but it's hard to say by how much. The Cushcore inserts combined with the low pressures they allow undoubtedly plays a role in this too, and I must admit I didn't remove and re-install the inserts to find out, my reasoning being - why would you? The Ohlins TTX coil shock is a proven performer as well, and no doubt contributes to the exceptional small-bump sensitivity.
As for the skinny steel tubes offering more compliance, I'm sceptical there's that much of a benefit here. Pull the handlebar one way and the rear wheel the other, and the twist through the frame doesn't feel radically different to many alloy bikes. I know this is hardly a scientific test, but if I can't feel much difference here I doubt if I can when so much else is happening on the trail. Steel may be real, but it's not magic.
Bottom outs? The heaviest landing on my local hill at Innerleithen DH trails is a drop about 7 feet or 2.2 m high, with a relatively flat, hardpack landing. I'm sure Canadian commenters will tell me that's barely a warm-up, but the shallow gradient makes for a heavy landing on any bike. If a bike doesn't bottom out here it's probably too firm. Yes, the Spur hit the bump stops here every time, but thanks to the big elastomer, it's more of a dull thud than a harsh metallic clunk. And on medium-sized landings, with the shock set to the firmest high-speed setting, the suspension has a nicely damped "pillowy" feel, as the energy is absorbed by the damper throughout the stroke rather than all at the end. For sure, if it's a freeride bike you're after then something more progressive would likely be better, but for UK-style downhill tracks where traction is key and the hucks are modest, the more linear suspension isn't a problem. You could always try a progressive coil or an air shock if you want more ramp, but I didn't need it.
The suspension feels damped, controlled and predictable. It never threw up any surprises and always felt stable and calm on kicky jumps, big steps, catch berms and in the air. It never crashes through the middle of its travel only to be caught by a sudden ramp-up of force at the end; there's always something to push against and the rebound is controlled and predictable too.
Cornering is where the Spur surprised me most. The low BB height and low-down frame weight seem to make it that bit quicker when changing direction from one direction of lean to the other in a series of alternating turns. And that linear suspension means support comes on sooner when you push into a turn, making it feel that bit more responsive especially in short, sharp corners. Despite a lengthy wheelbase, the Spur is surprisingly agile, especially on steep technical turns where it's easy to trust the front end not to truck under.
When the trail gets steep, tight and complicated, especially when riding blind, the lack of a rear derailleur was sometimes a real gift. A couple of times I went off-line and might have snagged a derailleur if there was one, or else had to take evasive action to protect it. Similarly, the lack of a chainring increases the ground clearance a little - despite the low BB height, the bottom of the gearbox measures 290 mm, which is a little higher than the bottom of a chainring on a typical enduro bike. This means you don't have to worry quite as much about sumping out when negotiating tricky ledges at low speed, particularly when riding them cautiously for the first time. It's not that I necessarily would have caught the chainring or derailleur on a regular bike, but it's nice to have one less thing to worry about when the terrain is at its most hectic.
Faults? A longer travel fork would definitely help reach the full potential and improve the balance. Although the suspension travel is balanced on paper (170mm front and rear), the fork delivers nearer 160 mm in the real world, so despite using all the fork's travel on occasion I struggled to get the bike to feel perfectly balanced in high-load berms. I had to run the fork fully open and the shock's compression damping nearer fully closed to stop it from squatting. Set up like this, the suspension worked well enough in the turns, but I would have liked to be able to run the fork a little softer. As I was already getting through all the travel, this wasn't an option. I considered fitting a firmer shock spring, but this seemed like a perverse way of making up for the short-travel fork. The Ohlins fork is not as supple as some forks either; even fully open there's noticeably more feedback through the hands than I got with a RockShox Zeb on the same tracks a few days later, leading to a little more hand pain at the bottom. A 180mm (or longer) fork with a lighter range of damping would be a better pairing to the rear and help extract the maximum potential on the descents. After all, if you've pedalled to the top you've earned every ounce of descending performance you can get. Fortunately, the fork is the only cloud in the sky when pointed downhill.
ReliabilityI have no issues to report. Nothing came loose, creaked or rattled. I did think the rear swingarm was misaligned at one point but it turns out I just had the adjustable dropouts set asymmetrically, leading to a slightly squint rear wheel. The shock alignment was bob on too - some bikes need a slight lateral force on the shock to get it to fit into the second mount. The shock's rebound knob fell off somehow, and the shifter clipped the top tube in a crash, causing a scratch. But Starling says the production bike will have a lower top tube so this shouldn't be an issue.
Effigear recommends changing the oil every 6,000 km or every year. Of course, you'll still have to lube the chain and change the cables, but there's no risk of breaking a derailleur.
Do you do your technical analysis before or after you ride the bike @sebstott ?
With all the effort he put into this review I think he should have put some tires on the rig he is familiar with.
But that's really complaining at a high level, Seb's reviews are always great to read.
But I'm not trying to make excuses - fitting familiar tyres would be better but it's hard to get hold of tyres right now and I didn't have an appropriate spare pair lying around.
9 percent more power, to just to keep up with your mate? that is a serious loss that could be pushing you into the next heartrate zone, it could be a serious reduction in ride enjoyment or duration.
Math pinkers: would that be comparable to climbing on a similar bike as your mate but with a backpack loaded with stones of 9% of your body wheight?
9% of body weight + bike weight, but yes.
It's not trying to be everything, and it's certainly not buying into the same marketing of how every 150mm+ travel bike has to pedal like it has "so much less than the numbers". We all happily know that's marketing bullshit when there's a conventional drivetrain strapped to the bike, but somehow putting a gearbox there makes this sacrifice untenable.
Sometimes owning a bike is about more than just percentage points of power, or whether it is the fastest or lightest. Starling have gone and made something they think is beautiful and people who agree will go and buy it. The rest of you can go on and sour grapes your way into owning something more efficient without a hint of the soul that this bike has and pretend you got a better deal.
If you're just looking for the objectively best long travel trail/enduro/park bike it's unlikely to start with a handmade £3,300 steel gearbox single pivot frame.
But if you WANT a bike just like this (as I do, for the record) then nothing else will do. And that's enough of a business case for Starling to exist and produce them.
I would probably google robin reliant as a more accurate baseline
Really wanted a Defender for the business, seemed to fit the business perfectly!
I could see the market providing options for different drive systems for different applications.
The efficiency bit is kind of moot. Look at big fat tyres. Totally inefficient but everyone uses them for the benefits they offer. Suspension, likewise.
How much efficiency is silence worth?
Your idea is also a good one though. Taking control of the gears away from the rider would free up mental I/O for other tasks.
And I don't care to... because it was a comment made in jest
This or make it an e-bike.
And for what? Yeah, the derailleur is a risk for unscheduled removal, but it could be reoriented if that's such a big deal. And waxing chains virtually eliminates the contamination issues with exposed chains. Not that this concept addresses that since it still uses a chain.
If durability is so important, tape a spare derailleur and chain to your seatstay for every ride. Or demand companies make a drivetrain storage box for that massive area where the gear box goes. Then if you hit a rock just swap it out. I joke, but this is still much lighter than a gearbox, and Deore is cheap.
Unsprung weight? Maybe. When gear boxes take over DH bikes we can talk again. But if it can't dominate an area that gets all the benefits and none of the drawbacks, what are we even talking about?
Anyway though, I appreciate and commend Starling for making this. I hope the people so excited for gear boxes can get one. I hope it turns out to be everything they ever hoped for even if it's not what I want. Thanks to all the gear box aficionados for trying to make bikes better even if I don't agree with the direction. You guys really love bikes. This is one of the things that makes mountain biking so great compared to many other hobbies - relatively affordable access to crazy ideas well outside the mainstream. And while I don't quite understand the obsession with having a drive train that simulates constantly pedaling in sand, it's great that someone can get one. And maybe I'm totally wrong and in 10 years we'll all be on the things.
This bike however has a shitty antisquat, a flat leverage curve and two freewheels, making it way less efficient (and less able to shift properly) than any other bike, gearbox or not.
Take the same bike design, make it 27 or mulet, put the gearbox in a vertical position and it would be much better. Add links somewhere and you can hide the gearbox efficiency loss by having a bike that can actually pedal.
Wonder if Starling have or would make a conventional version of this bike? I'd love to see that go up against the more conventional "super-enduro" bikes.
However, I think the efficiency gap could narrow enough to where they might make actual, practical sense for some. This guy did a bunch of efficiency tests with a 2x11 shimano vs Rolloff and a few other gearboxes. The dramatic offset chainline required for the 40 tooth cassette in the lowest gear actually made Rolloff comparably efficient. And this was with a clean chain in a lab. I know waxing helps with dirty chains, but most people don't do it, or if they do they don't keep it up as they should. Now with 12 speed cassettes and boost spaced BBs, the chainline is even worse. I think its possible to eventually have a gearbox thats only 2-3% less efficient in the lower gears than a 12 speed derailleur based drivetrain, and honestly if it rises to 5 or 7% for the higher gears thats tolerable, since youre probably pointed downhill at that point.
With a mature industry, its also probable that the weight could come down to be comparable to Deore and GX drivetrains. Kindernay's 7 speed and Shimano's Affline 11 speed hubs are already very close to Deore (but they have other issues).
www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems
www.cyclingabout.com/drivetrain-efficiency-difference-speed-between-1x-2x
Also I misspelled Rohloff literally every single time haha.
The closest I've ever ridden to one of these was a Shimano Nexus hybrid but it was definitely not like pedaling in sand. It's metal gears in an oil bath, not a torque converter.
I think it's dangerous to cross reference the two test results as the first link attempts to do. While both tests appear to be internally consistent, they were performed on different equipment in different situations using different protocols. Note that the single speed result from the gearbox test was better than the best result from the geared tests, despite the fact that several of the geared tests were on perfect chainlines.
And the rant I've been wanting to get off my chest for a while... Jason Smith and Ceramic Speed are great and I appreciate their work. But it's so frustrating that the "1X vs 2X" test failed to control for chain losses between the two companies. When comparing the data for perfect chainlines it's obvious that the shimano system has a significant inherent advantage, and Smith even speculates it's because shimano chains are faster. Which is good info, but I'm here to learn about 1X drivetrains!
While I'm talking about that test, I dug into that 1X vs 2X data a while back and came to a few conclusions:
1. Chainline losses in low gears are almost completely offset by reduced friction larger cogs.
2. Shimano chains are faster in a straight line, AND experience less impact from chainline than SRAM. SRAM has the edge on durability based on other testing though.
3. If you run your 1X with a Shimano chain it's very similar to the 2X in low gears but still takes a step back when going fast.
The first crowd is cool, and definitely not in the "just buy deore" camp. My last paragraph is directed to them.
The second crowd is more vocal and regularly uses arguments like reliability and replacement cost to justify their opinion about everyone else's riding choices. They are the ones who have to confront the cost of the very good alternatives on the market like Deore.
Not sure what to make of your particular situation. Chain efficiency is so difficult to test and present properly that we only have a few snapshots to extrapolate from. As far as I know nobody has published data from 12 speed drivetrains or the HG+ 51t. I hear about how draggy the big cog feels, but the actual testing data does not hint at such a major effect for chainline and Shimano is generally reported as faster than SRAM. My Shimano feels fine in the 51, but I doubt my ability to detect the difference. The only thing I can think of is maybe the chain binds at the very extreme of chainline and you're going past that, but that's not supported by anything beyond intuition. Or maybe you're running a cheaper chain than the stuff we have data on and it's more sensitive to chainline?
The point is that there is the potential for gearboxes, in the lowest gears, to be close enough in efficiency that tests have to be very controlled and very precise to catch the difference. If weight comes down a bit more, they can possibly compete there too.
All that being said, if the unsprung mass was really that beneficial we would see more than a single solitary gearbox in World Cups over the last 10 years (or maybe 7 speed DH drivetrains are so much lighter than massive 800 gram SX cassettes it doesn't matter?). I still hate the idea that we ride an offroad vehicle with the transmission hanging outside the rear wheel, completely open to the elements.
I think you are misinterpreting the datas.
The test at 50W and 200W show an increase in efficiency, But you can't extrapolate from that alone. There is proportional losses due to frictions in the "working" gears, fixed losses from the bearings, seals, "non working" gears, and probably "variable" losses due to anything non-linear (deflection, lubing efficiency, ...). There is a huge chance that going from 200 to 250W, the efficiency in % would be really close.
But yes the efficiency of boxes and geared hub is already close enough to not be a real world issue if you aren't counting the watt. There is more difference in two tires than there is between a box and a mech.
And the weight of a rear mech and cassette, isn't only unsprung, it's also away from the CoG of the bike, and if unsprug mass has a debatable effect on suspension action, having weight in the wheel rather than close to the bottom bracket is something detrimental. I don't think WC DH bikes are riding mech and cassette for technical reason only, as we would see more often boxed bikes. Maybe it's because brand want to sell the bike to consumer afterward and gearboxes don't match the price point (or variety of price points). Maybe it's too different for rider to be used to. Maybe designing a frame around a box only for one bike in the range isn't relevant. There is many reason not to use a gearbox that isn't due to technical advantages. (that's also true to many other parameters, as we are still seing changes like wheel size or frame geometry, after years of them being the same, proof that sometimes the best solution isn't considered yet)
What do you use for your quicklink? If Shimano have you tried reusing it, and if not Shimano any effect on shifting? I'm considering just throwing my wipperman 11s link on there and seeing what happens. Any wax related insights into Shimano 12s appreciated.
Gearboxes and hub gears can't compete on efficiency and likely never will be able to but they can offer something different and advantages (such as shifting at a standstill or when not pedalling) that derailleur gears can't do at all or can't do without very clever electronics.
Well done for adding some cliche ebike bullshit anyway, very original.
@thegoodflow: aah go lick an ebike battery ;-)
Unicycles. Checkmate.
But in all seriousness, even the "derailleur in a box" isn't going to be as efficient, since you need at least 2 cogs in your "gearbox" and still need two cogs to transmit power back to the rear wheel via chain or belt (or driveshaft)
www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/kindernay-xiv-my-experience-so-far.22759
But if that box completely prevents contamination you might be able to redesign the chain for efficiency and close the gap. Maybe Teflon bushings between the link and pin?
I think you’re mistaken on chain friction. The explanations I’ve read point to the articulation at the pin-plate interface as the primary source of friction. If there was significant friction at the interface between the roller and cog surface the proper optimization would be to reduce surface area of the contact interface, which would tend to be better for the cassette than the single speed.
zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Friction-Producing-Mechanisms.pdf
Side note: that document claims that loaded articulations are what counts.
So no, but kinda yes.
It is a nice detail nonetheless.
- Heavier than a Levo SL e-bike
- Draggy to pedal
- You have to backpedal to change gear
- Not as much travel as advertised
- Linear suspension kinematic from 10 years ago (which on other reviews seems to be a massive negative)
- £3500 frame only
So no thanks. Oh and bolt-on braces suck and always creak.
www.starlingcycles.com/why-single-pivot-steel-and-coil-is-the-best-setup
You need to run them with more low speed compression and more preload (and probably faster rebound) to get them to ride higher in the travel. The setup you were running makes you run low in the travel where the spring force is higher and it feels harsh over chattery bumps.
How do I know... I did the same thing initially. It's counter intuitive but it works.
If you did that the front and rear would have balanced much better.
That said, RS recently had to update their air spring because it was sucking into the stroke for some pressure/travel settings. But at least the fork actually could extent to the rated travel...
They changed the damper to the smaller piston to match the DH fork with less damping.
Ohlins also offer a range of different tunes if you need to go lighter.
That's not the problem here. In the same review he is talking about getting pillowy softness from winding on more compression damping in the rear shock and complaining about harshness in the fork while running the fork with no compression damping. The lack of low speed is making the dynamic ride height too low and he's riding small bumps in a harsher part of the spring's travel. The lack of stiction in the coil makes this more of an issue. Ohlins specs a heavier compression tune on the coil version for this reason.
Consumers and the industry need to be careful how they respond to such failures though, as complaints about the new spring being less supple illustrate. That’s what happens when you equalize +/- higher in the stroke and reduce negative volume just to hit the top out bumper every time. I would rather see an over stroked air assembly that’s designed for a little extra sag combined with advertising that states a range instead of a single arbitrary round number.
And i was not telling that about the tester also... the review is not as bad as what you're trying to make me say.
(I don't have shares at Starling, Cane Creek or Effigear).
I agree with the sentiment of your comment though. Just another limited colorway part vs an actually interesting frame that does things differently and has a fun marketing hook. (Gosh that sounds a lot like Brooklyn Machine Works, which would prob get everyone fainting with joy if they came back. Myself included.)
I didn't try to 'make you say anything' . I just expressed my opinion that the size or location of the company should not be a factor in the technical part of the review. Even though it is given attention in the introduction in this case. A bike with octagonal wheels would be very 'original and artisanal' . But it would ride like sh!t. I want Seb to ride the bike and tell me how that was. And then I will decide for myself whether this version of 'original and artisanal' is what I want. Last time I was shopping for bikes I had a lengthy conversation with a guy that welds custom steel frames in a shed that is biking distance away from me. Prices were similar to what I would have paid for a Starling at the time. Due to career choice and priorities outside of biking, I couldn't afford either so I went with a German consumer direct product. But if small and local was the deciding factor a company from a country that recently chose to give me and my fellow Europeans the finger wouldn't be an option for me.
"Remove the chain from a regular bike and you'll notice a slight lack of support in corners".
Can you elaborate a bit? I've never tried, but that doesn't make much sense to me.
It’s mostly in ya mind mate.
And the clutch: I tried compressing with my sram mech locked open and you can feel the movement starts easier (first few mm) without the stiction of the clutch, but again, is nothing to offer support in a corner when a 70kg rider is pushing down half way through the travel
we need answers @seb-stott:
I can also add. I did notice a free'er suss feeling when I went non clutch single speed on the DH bike
Amen.
I’d get a gearbox bike, but I’d want a motor too, otherwise there’s just too much resistance and subsequent loss of efficiency.
I’m really hard on derailleurs, riding rocky terrain in the western USA, my derailleurs looks like someone took 40 grit sandpaper to them, but other than the occasional hanger alignment they continue to work as designed for many miles.
Hard to fix something that ain’t broke.
however I do not see any benefits of gearboxes without motor, Pedal assist bike with gear box should be ideal solution to the:
- look and feel
- maintenance
- suspension performance
- removing all negatives of gear box
Great review as always and an enjoyable informative, in depth read. Enjoyed your observations about the gearbox also, which is a valuable insight. I note your issues with the Ohlins RXF36 m2 coil feeling harsh despite the sag being ok with the white spring for your weight - just wondered if this may be helped by a lighter compression tune? Reason being the coil damper does come with a particularly firm tune (set up firmer than the air spring option at stock) C50 R40 I think it was.
Speaking from experience, I had similar issues setting mine up on my Spec Enduro. I went to a lower spring rate first, which helped but still knew I wasn't getting the best out the fork. I then went to the lower compression tune (same spring rate) and it then transformed the fork and subsequently the bike, matching the suppleness and incredibly active rear TTX22M.
I have mused that the reasoning behind the too firm compression tune for most riders for the stock coil fork is that Ohlins did their testing on bikes with steeper head angles a few years back, rather than down at the 62/63 range we're seeing now, which may require a lighter spring rate than the recommended chart or lighter tune as there's slightly less force going through the fork due to the slack angle. I have absolutely no numbers or reasoning to back this up though, and haven't spoken to Ohlins, other than just noticing others having similar problems, and an article on NSMB with similar findings running the fork on a Geometron. So take it with a pinch of salt!
Thank you for reading thus far.
lol, ok then.
PS. Seb Stott really does great reviews but this bike is just a dog imo.
cinq.de/en/shifting-technology/428/shift-r-tour-for-pinion
www.pinkbike.com/news/gamux-reveal-updated-prototype-cnc-gearbox-bike-that-nears-production.html
Was it better than your racing motors?
"in the end an extra lap or two in the same amount of time is hard to pass up."
They downvoted him because he spoke the truth.
@Blackhat: not even kind of.
But would probably consider making one very similar rather than face the hefty price tag ; )
Not that this will ever be mistaken for a Transition Spur.
Might as well have called it a Session.
How is this still a thing?
The 'new' Effigear Mimic is exactly the same internals, just with a mounting and drive output to copy (mimic) the Pinion.
The box used on this bike is still current and will be supported for a good long while.
www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2021/08/31/radical-new-electric-bike-drive-systems-requires-no-chains-or-belts-entirely-ride-by-wire/amp