What do e-bikes, dropper posts, one-piece wheels, and air-powered shifting all have in common? They're all reinventions of an existing product, and while the first two have had a massive impact on our sport, today's episode is all about those interesting but fatally flawed components. Mike Kazimer, Ryan Palmer, and I chat about why Shimano's Airlines drivetrain is so great, the Spin wheels we all wanted, linkage forks, and other questionable products.
THE PINKBIKE PODCAST // EPISODE 110 - TRYING (AND FAILING) TO REINVENT THE MOUNTAIN BIKE March 17th, 2022
Where's my hover bike?
Featuring a rotating cast of the editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.
As a home mechanic and former amateur racer, here's what failing looks like: 1. Weird internal routing and stem integration that makes stem swaps a 2-3hr including a brake bleed. Transition got it right with an external brake hose running along the NDS. 2. Anything that negatively impacts serviceability and resale value, particularly unnecessary electronic shifting and electronic suspension. Nobody wants to buy your v1 Live Valve/Flight Attendant/AXS dropper.
I don't really get why everybody goes crazy for the brake hose being external. Why not make everything external? Do people change their brakes more than their drivetrain? What's special about the brake specifically?
@Will762: changing a derailleur cable is a lot less messy and involved than with an hydraulic brake cable. Also, internal routing is great if there are internal guides/tubes incorporated. However, most manufacturers keep it at 'drilling a couple of holes in the frame and let the customer figure out that rest'.
@Will762: I think the external brake routing is a bit of a niche complaint. Most of us just run whatever brakes come on the bike and if they change them, the shop is doing it anyways.
Its a valid complaint but I dont know if it should be dictating the bike design.
The stem integration thing may legitimately keep me from purchasing the newest version of the Scott Spark. I I’ve swapped bars & stem on every MTB I’ve had, and that looks like way too big of a pain.
The cable has full internal routing on my trail bike and I am certain it does for the brake too. But I am still running the same brakes that came with the bike 4 years ago.
I bought my XC bike as bare frame. That one I know has full internal routing (including the dropper cable). Installing the brake hose, dropper cable, and shift cable probably took 30 seconds. It was stupid easy and I would have that no other way.
I build all my bikes from scratch, so internal brake routing sucks, esp. if I'm swapping frames and using the same brakes. Imagine having to cut and bleed you line every time you swap out and if your line is short then it's a new brake line.
Internal; routing is a PITA no matter how you slice it, not only is it unnecessary, but it makes your work harder for no benefit other than aesthetics AND it opens up some lovely holes for moisture to enter your frame.
@Will762: For people who maintain or fix bikes, internal cabling makes jobs that are 2-10 minutes into complex tasks taking potentially 2-3 hours with lots of things to potentially go wrong. Additionally you sometimes need expensive special tools to re-thread cables and hoses and brakes will need a bleed. Theses are all downsides of internal cabling. The only upside is asthetics in some peoples opinion.
If people don't stand up for their right to repair simple, mechanical bikes, those designs will go extinct in favor of expensive, electronic crap that will be obsolete, impossible to repair, and worthless in less than three years. The private equity firms that aquire MTB companies are interested I growing high margin sales to dentists, not talented young groms with less than $2k to spend.
@mikelevy IIRC, GT actually built the Airlines air cannister into the down tube of their prototype DH bikes. (LTS or LOBO pre-thermoplastic, can't remember exactly) Pretty cool technology being played with back then.
Kooka cranks we’re my lust part in middle school. Few years later in high school I found out my best friend’s dad was the machinist contracted to make them. He had a bunch of half-machined cranks laying around his shop. Coolest guy in the world after that. Dad passed but my friend still has a few sets laying around.
I thought an "acoustic" bike was the one that a friend rides where they NEVER lube their chain, their brakes pads are contaminated and their press fit bottom bracket has more sand than grease in it...
I once set up ZAP mechtronic rear derailleur and the head unit mounted upside down(under bar) as a wireless DH shifter and rear derailleur on an 2009 Banshee Legend just to see if it would work and it did but i couldn't use a cell phone. HAHAHA it was next level with Vintage parts!
There was a bow ti on my riding group. I remember riding behind my friend and I would laugh as I could see how the rear wasn’t tracking with the front end. He crashed more on that bike then at any point in our years of riding. Was pretty though.
Mike and Mike never miss having a shot at gearbox bikes! Grip-shift + Pinion gearbox are superb for Enduro /Trail (Zerode Katipo 29er). Matched up with Ergon GA3 grips. Maybe not for Darkfest type stuff but haven’t had issues anywhere else. And if you must have ebikes then an ebike with a gearbox is the ideal combination, especially with a carbon belt drive. The whole system can cope with the electric motor’s torque and maintenance is minimal. Plus, the electronics can synchronize a tiny gap in power delivery during gear changes for all those too uncoordinated to manage this simple skill on a non-electric Pinion bike.
I have a small bit of feedback/plea to fix something for the podcast: There is someone (pretty sure it's @mikekazimer ) who seems like they are constantly tapping the microphone when they talk. Or possibly just thumping their hand against a table as they gesture while speaking and maybe their mic is sensitive enough to pick it up. But basically there's a low-frequency "whump" constantly when they are talking that gets super-distracting, especially when wearing good headphones that bring out the bass. I've noticed it on most of the recordings now. I know, first-world problems and a minor nit but getting rid of that would make one of my favorite podcasts even better.
It may be the microphone being mounted on the table that's getting pounded is the cause of this. If the microphone can be suspended without being attached to the table, this might help. Maybe there's a way to do this with a bike stand, if nothing else!
Hey Pinkbike I have a question for one of your podcasts, more of some relationship advice. What should I do if there is someone who I like but we are going to different colleges next year? also she doesn't ride bikes. Whats my next move?
Question for PB staffers How would you suggest training for enduro racing when no terrain suitable for enduro nearby. I live central Canada and will be driving 6-8hrs for these enduro races. XC trails are around but no elevation greater then 50m. Moving closer is in the future but not the present. Any suggestions?
On the subject of "words and phrases I personally can't stand" I'm no outdoor sports' slang etymologist BUT seems like a lot of MTB slang is adopted from other, older sports such as surfing and skiing. "Schralp" and "kook" quiver is probably a crossover from those, too? Which is too bad because there's SO many good words for a collection of bikes... Stable? Herd? Pack?
All this to say I can't stand MTBers saying "earn your turns" leave that one to the backcountry skiers!!! Unless you actually built the trail by hand, with no mechanical assistance, then say whatever you like.
I know I am not typical, but I have used power with flat pedals for a few years now (thought the PM just broke). I rarely ride my XC bike, though I love racing XC. I can use the trail bike with flat pedals for intervals (I have a flat, boring service road next to my regular trails) and then once I am done take the same bike and send it off anything I want (170mm coil bike).
It is my do everything, except actually race, bike.
Though, I have a Race Face Cinch PM which is in the crank spindle out of harms way. I would not use pedal power, as often as I have broken pedals on that bike. I need to fix the PM so I can use it for proper training again.
Spengle very kindly gave me a set of their wheels to run a few years ago after I said how frikkin' cool I thought they (still waiting for that full review by the way PB...!). I really enjoyed them and I never went a ride without someone wanting to chat with me about them - there's a very definite vintage or rider (which I fit into) who remembers mag wheels and tri-spokes and loves finally getting a set now they are grown up and have some cash! Spengle were also awesome when I had an issue with my first (prototype) set.
Suggestion for a podcast segment or even better a short video - Bushing Play. It's seems to be a problem you are always coming up against during tests. I'm not 100% sure what it is. I'm sure many of us have shocks with it but are unaware.
Wait a minute...so your new guy doesn't like ACTUAL bicycles (refusing to ride a hard tail and calling road bikes stupid), but thinks ebikes are "game changers"?
Get the f*ck out. His opinion to me is about as valuable to me as a Kardashian.
-K2 (or Proflex) Smartshock -Gervin (or Proflex) linkage fork with elastomers -Paul’s (or Rhino, or there were a few others) CNC Machined rear derailleurs (yeah, I know, they didn’t work that good, but they looked pretty!) -Michelin Wild Gripper tires in green. I think the green was some special compound that was better or something. -Rotor cranks that eliminated the “dead spot” -Maverick stuff. Their inverted forks were awesome! 24mm thru axle was ahead of its time, and their full suss bikes rode great! I believe their DUC32 (32mm inverted double triple clamp) fork was the same weight as a current Fox 36. I know weight isn’t everything, but that DUC32 was a great performing fork.
Also, the Hammerschmidt was amazing. Worked perfectly every time. As for weight, it was not too bad when you factor in the weight of a front derailleur, 2 extra chainrings, and if they really wanted to run with it, they could have easily made those crankarms out of carbon.
For carbon “spoked” wheels, they keep popping up. There are currently 6 spokes out from BikeAhead, and a China knockoff of them on EBay. The BikeAhead wheels are awesome. The China knockoffs, they are heavy, and at $1000, not super cheap, but they look cool.
Question for the podcast: Which brand does the best videos? You've discussed the riders' media requirements, but having watched a lot of the videos from Commencal recently and Iove the style (very Craig Stecyk feel to the shots) and the fact it's not all massive jumps and tricks, and they even throw in the odd crash as well (in the case of B Side of My War make that a lot), does anyone else do better? Or even come close? Any strong output from competent or clothing brands? Are the videos proven to actually sell anything? And if you were in control, what type of film would it be, huge jumps or sending it through the trees?
Aside: caught Accomplice on Netflix the other day, second time round I let it run to the end, goddamnit Pinkbike pops up in the credits, sticky fingers in all the pies! (great film)
Can we talk about the rebirth of failed game changers? How about oval rings, constant drive train (for lack of a better phrase) a drive train that continues to rotate while not pedaling by use of rear hub gear. Both of these I’ve seen in 40 year old Shimano powered Schwinn bikes. How do you feel about tire inserts?
With reference to the riding protection with the airbags, RXR was it? Well get Jason to test it in a feature called....wait for it!!!....HUCK TO SPLAT!!!!!
E throttle makes sense in a modern car, mapping, idle control etc, but I don’t think it’s a straight comparison to shifting. I’m happy with mechanical and do still enjoy the 1-2-3 long click on XT.
24lbs is still pretty chunky. Lots of full-sus XC race bikes with 12 speeds weigh less than that nowadays.
Carbon cranks. XC wheels with XC rubber... XC wheels are around 1500g, enduro wheels often come in above 2200g, that's 2lbs right there. XC rubber is generally 750g, carbon bar, alloy stem, carbon seat post, and a lightweight fork can easily get that weight down.
I had a ti hardtail and that thing weighed about 23lbs with a 100mm fork, 1600g wheels, XC tires, and a carbon cockpit/seat post.
I'm waiting for one of the major main line component companies to come out with power assisted hydraulic disc brakes (like automobiles) that will allow me to use "one pinkie" (or pinky) braking.
Might be a boring question but, would you rather ride 4 piston brakes with smaller rotors or 2 piston with bigger rotors? Pros and cons of each? Thanks.
Another boring question - same rotor size but more power (eg Code front/Guide rear) in the front then back maybe? Might cater for heat dissipation on the back with enough power up front when you really need it...
In my experience, 1 size Bigger rotor will give you more braking power than more pistons with smaller rotor. more pistons = bigger pad. So possibly greater resistance to fade down long descents.
1. Weird internal routing and stem integration that makes stem swaps a 2-3hr including a brake bleed. Transition got it right with an external brake hose running along the NDS.
2. Anything that negatively impacts serviceability and resale value, particularly unnecessary electronic shifting and electronic suspension. Nobody wants to buy your v1 Live Valve/Flight Attendant/AXS dropper.
Its a valid complaint but I dont know if it should be dictating the bike design.
I bought my XC bike as bare frame. That one I know has full internal routing (including the dropper cable). Installing the brake hose, dropper cable, and shift cable probably took 30 seconds. It was stupid easy and I would have that no other way.
I build all my bikes from scratch, so internal brake routing sucks, esp. if I'm swapping frames and using the same brakes. Imagine having to cut and bleed you line every time you swap out and if your line is short then it's a new brake line.
Internal; routing is a PITA no matter how you slice it, not only is it unnecessary, but it makes your work harder for no benefit other than aesthetics AND it opens up some lovely holes for moisture to enter your frame.
Internal is and will always be STOPPID.
Theses are all downsides of internal cabling. The only upside is asthetics in some peoples opinion.
Good to know!
1) One bike you're looking forward to, one bike you're happy with now, and one bike you wish you could forget.
2) Best bike park in BC (can't say Whistler)
3) Favourite trail network outside of the sea 2 sky
Grip-shift + Pinion gearbox are superb for Enduro /Trail (Zerode Katipo 29er). Matched up with Ergon GA3 grips. Maybe not for Darkfest type stuff but haven’t had issues anywhere else.
And if you must have ebikes then an ebike with a gearbox is the ideal combination, especially with a carbon belt drive. The whole system can cope with the electric motor’s torque and maintenance is minimal. Plus, the electronics can synchronize a tiny gap in power delivery during gear changes for all those too uncoordinated to manage this simple skill on a non-electric Pinion bike.
How would you suggest training for enduro racing when no terrain suitable for enduro nearby. I live central Canada and will be driving 6-8hrs for these enduro races. XC trails are around but no elevation greater then 50m. Moving closer is in the future but not the present. Any suggestions?
All this to say I can't stand MTBers saying "earn your turns" leave that one to the backcountry skiers!!! Unless you actually built the trail by hand, with no mechanical assistance, then say whatever you like.
It is my do everything, except actually race, bike.
Though, I have a Race Face Cinch PM which is in the crank spindle out of harms way. I would not use pedal power, as often as I have broken pedals on that bike. I need to fix the PM so I can use it for proper training again.
Get the f*ck out. His opinion to me is about as valuable to me as a Kardashian.
-K2 (or Proflex) Smartshock
-Gervin (or Proflex) linkage fork with elastomers
-Paul’s (or Rhino, or there were a few others) CNC Machined rear derailleurs (yeah, I know, they didn’t work that good, but they looked pretty!)
-Michelin Wild Gripper tires in green. I think the green was some special compound that was better or something.
-Rotor cranks that eliminated the “dead spot”
-Maverick stuff. Their inverted forks were awesome! 24mm thru axle was ahead of its time, and their full suss bikes rode great! I believe their DUC32 (32mm inverted double triple clamp) fork was the same weight as a current Fox 36. I know weight isn’t everything, but that DUC32 was a great performing fork.
Also, the Hammerschmidt was amazing. Worked perfectly every time. As for weight, it was not too bad when you factor in the weight of a front derailleur, 2 extra chainrings, and if they really wanted to run with it, they could have easily made those crankarms out of carbon.
For carbon “spoked” wheels, they keep popping up. There are currently 6 spokes out from BikeAhead, and a China knockoff of them on EBay. The BikeAhead wheels are awesome. The China knockoffs, they are heavy, and at $1000, not super cheap, but they look cool.
Which brand does the best videos? You've discussed the riders' media requirements, but having watched a lot of the videos from Commencal recently and Iove the style (very Craig Stecyk feel to the shots) and the fact it's not all massive jumps and tricks, and they even throw in the odd crash as well (in the case of B Side of My War make that a lot), does anyone else do better? Or even come close? Any strong output from competent or clothing brands? Are the videos proven to actually sell anything? And if you were in control, what type of film would it be, huge jumps or sending it through the trees?
Aside: caught Accomplice on Netflix the other day, second time round I let it run to the end, goddamnit Pinkbike pops up in the credits, sticky fingers in all the pies! (great film)
It has an aluminum frame, chromo fork and tubeless XC tires. On the heavy side, I have steel BMX cranks.
Please explain how your steel HT weighs less.
Carbon cranks. XC wheels with XC rubber... XC wheels are around 1500g, enduro wheels often come in above 2200g, that's 2lbs right there. XC rubber is generally 750g, carbon bar, alloy stem, carbon seat post, and a lightweight fork can easily get that weight down.
I had a ti hardtail and that thing weighed about 23lbs with a 100mm fork, 1600g wheels, XC tires, and a carbon cockpit/seat post.
more pistons = bigger pad. So possibly greater resistance to fade down long descents.
Another PB podcast: thx guys
r2-bike.com/SHIMANO-AIRLINES-MTB-Gruppe-1x7-Limited-Edition-NO-0082