The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 72 - Hey Outers!

 I do not like Outside. Like, at all.

But there’s really no point in getting too upset about it as users until something actually happens. Also, need to cut Brian and those guys some slack … they didn’t have anything to do with the sale, and they owe it to themselves and their careers to be optimistic about the transition. What do we want from them, and what else would we expect them to do?

 Hopefully Outside covers therapy as part of their health insurance plan

 Haven’t listened yet, but I’m hoping this is the announcement of Levy and Kazimer leaving to start their own site, Mikebike.

 Couple things:

1. “Hey outers” no, absolutely not, never again.

2. “The comments were pretty mixed” nah they were pretty consistent

3. In all seriousness I’m glad y’all took this podcast to discuss and inform about the change. I’m optimistic but the realist in me has many concerns

 I'm curious to give this a listen to and was wondering/hoping you guys would do this episode... I have appreciated the candid discussions and additional insight the podcast provides!

 Outside employees of the month get the front parking space and an "I brake for paywalls' bumper sticker.

 I'm less worried about free and more worried about what it means, in the long run, for shifts in content/accessibility. Pinkbike is no longer at the top of their control chain. I'd love to be optimistic about what that means as it will open up more resources but in the long run will likely reduce bottom up influence and adaptability. Also, Outside didn't buy it because they are lovely people who are just enthralled by the antics of those on this site and just gosh darn love bikes- they bought it because they predicted it would better their bottom line. I enjoy the site, plan on continuing to do so, but am a little less optimistic. I also won't be participating in any more surveys. Outside can pay me (us?) for that info if they want it. I sure hope all the editors and staff benefit from this as they should- PB was a great thing and they made it what it was. Whether the marionette strings continue to allow it to remain that or not is less sure IMO.

 loving the Ben Cathro (pay this man) "how to" video series, more of this. Additional suggestions...more field test videos (like the budget bike comparisons) but with different builds/setups (if Outside is opening its coffers to expand upon PB content, there should be money to spend here).

 I have faith in the PB team, and Outside, that they'll keep the essence of Pinkbike intact. The community here is very special. But so is the incredible amount of work that the PB team has put in for decades. Great job and congratulations. Excited to see where you go from here!

 Behold, Pinkbike peasants! We, the Outside nobility, have come here to claim new territory and collect taxes!

 I'm far more pissed & worried when a podcast doesn't drop for a week (even if its was about UFO's which I care nothing about) than I am Outside picked up PB. I listened to this week's podcast twice before commenting (didn't comment on the press-release), have followed PB for over a decade (tho subscribed only 2019)... and I don't really know how PB stays afloat with all of us suckin at the teat like we do, so with the demise of Bike.mag (subscribed since the beginning) I honestly don't mind subscribing. Honestly Pinkbike is better - would be supreme if there was just a monthly mag to get & hold onto vs everything sliding off into the ether !

Perspective: add up the value of bikes currently owned by just the commenters on podcast comment section and I'll bet we're looking at several $100K (US). Add up the coffee, beer, burgers, bike parts & accessories, jerseys & gear - whatever it is that's really luxury stuff - that we're all dropping mad coin on for just a day or a week and its substantial - yet we're whining that PB could be maybe subscription? OH NO, ITS THE PAYWALL!

I'd rather PB be free to the world really. Its a resource unlike any other - its my facebook & insta without all douchery & Russian propo & pandering me-me-me of those formats all in one great site & I want that to stay the same. But I'd honestly be fine to pay a tad money to keep it this way - would NOT pay money if it got douchey & corporate - and its such an integral part of my bike world, views, and thinking that Imma give the PB bro's & bra's a break, wait & see if it gets better or sucks-ass and then bitch about it or quit. Til then - just chill out & cut 'em some slack.

 I had no idea that Pay to Win testing was that common. As journalists first and foremost, and now ones with a big organisation at your back, I feel like that's a story you could now be telling? Time to name and shame the sites and magazines that operate that model and even more so the manufacturers that require it. Who can we trust?

 Always enjoy the peeks behind the curtain. Looking forward to growth, we heard from Brian what he'd like to see in a year, and in a comment somewhere about going to races, but what about Levy and Kaz? What do each of you want to see in a year and what more long term thing would be exciting for you to see that may have been written off as a pipe dream in the past?

 I'm surprised that the Pinkbike team is surprised users aren't happy about this acquisition. Something that is currently free and that many of us use daily will come at some sort of a cost in the future. The "capital to improve content and therefore you should be happy" line is pretty weak.

I get that it's a company and they can (and should) do what is best for the owners, employees, etc. but Pinkbike has billed itself as a mountain bike community and generates content, in part, from that community so it feels like a community resource that just sold to a giant, distant, faceless corporation.

 “Hey Outers!”

*pukes*

 I still hear people complaining about the TF subscription, I'm pretty sure most of those people are still using it free without too many issues. I'd argue that TF is better than it was when it was free. Change is inevitable, I think it's at least worth a look at what the paid platform will look like.

 I have an inny, can I still listen and comment?

 Don't let the haters get to you guys. They are just vocal because they love something and they are afraid of losing it. Keep being passionate about what you do and the community will follow.

 Great podcast as usual. It gave good insight into how you guys feel and what your hopes are. I'm bummed a Canadian creation that was really cool got bought up by an American behemoth, as that never seems to end well. I really hope you guys get a big raise so you can afford to live well in one of the most expensive places in the world.

 @mikelevy keep up the good work on raw and unfiltered opinions. The world does not need more things smoothed over for easier consumption.

 Seriously. Explain the math. Pinkbike now has to pay its staff, pay outsides staff, and pay outsides shareholders. I’d argue there isn’t much room to grow their user base. Either pinkbike content will get worse, more expensive, or much more likely, both.

 I hope there isn't a paywall but I'm going to keep coming to PB as long as the content is similar to what it's been and as long as I'm not priced out of it. Aside from liking that I don't pay for PB now, I also hope that Outside doesn't influence the content and make it more like Outside Magazine, which I would barely ever glance at if it were free as it seems like it's a vehicle for advertisers and something trying to be important.

PB is awesome because it's run by people who love goofing around in the woods on bikes, and is focused on talking about goofing around in the woods on bikes (I'm stealing some of your words). Keep it that simple and it will be an escape, just like biking is an escape. Even when you're all totally wrong in your views and reviews, I enjoy reading and especially enjoy the podcast. Now get back to talking about bikes instead of the online media business. Thanks for all you do.

 My biggest piss off is the work that has gone into trail forks, and now pinkbike has profited from what was originally a crowd sourced community project. That stings a lot to think that data from the backs of all the volunteers into line someones pocket and the thought of all the sensitive trails and ride log data to be available to a subscriber fucking sucks full stop. Party foul and karma sucks.

 I think I sit at the opposite end of all the people who are scared of the looming paywall. About a year or so ago I was watching videos by Christina and Ben and on top of all the other great content I was thinking this is so good I would be prepared to pay for it. Then a couple of months later I was browsing the merch page and realised you could pay for it, so I did. It is about the same as a magazine subscription and every great original PB video or feature I watch/read/listen to, I think proudly "I helped pay for that' and not just by consuming advertising.

If it all turns to crap, I'll stop paying and go elsewhere. Also I'm not one for bad mouthing people generally, but if Outside do screw it up I'll probably be on here cursing them and their mothers. Until then I'm gonna ride my bike and enjoy the PB content (and maybe a few other things) - life can be f*£@*$g awesome if you let it!

 Glad you all feel some stability improvements are coming from having a bigger owner. I hope they let you do your thing and support you. I like you all and I hope that Outside understands that your writing and actual voices are what keep some of us coming back.

 Good luck. I've been through two acquisitions as a consultant. Both times, there were promises that not much would change and people would benefit. I gave it a chance but left (in both cases) within several months when those promises turned out to be lies...big lies. Predictably, it was all about the bottom line. I've heard the same story from so many friends in different industries. Maybe this will work out differently for PB. In the end, if it doesn't, I'll have one less thing that'll take up time in my busy life.

 I am open to a Paywall as long as the Quality and Quantity of the content increases dramatically. I am not saying is bad right now, i am just trying to say that there is always opportunities to be improve content.

I honestly think the Grim Donut is a good direction on innovation for the website, both intros of the 2 videos are topnotch quality, every time i see them i feel like watching something out of Netflix, and if we are to pay it needs to be one whole 10 episode season per year. Not just 2 episodes every blue moon.

Also a series like Drive to Survive for the DHWC Season, then one or 2 years latter add the XC or viceversa. That one in conjunction with Redbull would be a totally winning formula.

If Pinkbike is in that direction I will definitely pay, not Netflix or Disney+ levels of $$$ but I would pay something.

 I just feel like someone should say even though there were thousands of negative comments a lot of us (pinkers, outers, bikers, mikers) didn't comment and are happy to see pinkbike growing and supported!

Good job to Brian and the other earthlings at pinkbike!

 It's kind of ironic, because I would have been willing to subscribe to pinkbike before they sold out (assuming you would benefit from some kind of increase of a service rendered). Certainly not now.

 Listening... Readying sausage fingers....

 Why is the bike world so against change. If you’ve been around long enough you will have seen a lot of changes come and go. Jesus, the first time I saw a v brake I thought they’d never catch on and that my onza h20 cantis where way better………. Stuff always changes and things always move on.

 You take the blue pill or the red pill. One keeps the outside overlords happy, the other comes with a severance package. Great for the founders hopefully they got a big paycheck. My concern is we've been drinking at the local micro brewery and it just got bought by Coors. They promise to make the beer the same but just a matter of time before it gets turned into Coors. Hope I am wrong.

 I dont know how many people i speak for, but i would be more ok with a subscription or paywall if i knew the money went to pinkbike and not outside. If pinkbike came out and said, "hey we need more money", id be ok with that. Its the fact that ill have to give my money to a business i dont like to access the content i enjoy.

 Juat listened to the podcast. For what it's worth...
1. I'd take a paywall over commercial influence on content any day. I'm not sure why the paywall is the story.
2. A media company buying another media company is significantly less troublesome than a media company buying a portion of one of our elite level competitions. No one seemed that fussed about that (I guess the paywall word wasnt used)
3. I'm surprised the Amaury story dodnt make it into the news section. There was some discussion a few months ago about pinkbike supporting minority groups in mountain biking. One of the biggest names in our sport putting cornrows on his hair and then using the n word is a big deal. The negative comments on that article are, frankly, more important than the negative comments on the Outside article.

 I want to be positive, but go over to Rock and Ice for example, and try to read a review (all are behind the paywall). On Outside .com you can read "reviews" but they are just vehicles for Outside to include affiliate links to sell stuff. I want to give PB a chance under Outside, but I have seen how Outside/Pocket Media treated all their other acquisitions and it's hard to believe PB is big enough to get treated any differently than all the other titles swept up recently.

 I would like to know what will happen with the Trailforks pro memberships? I signed up during the period that would be $17.99/yr for life. I certainly hope this stays the same for those of us that signed up during that period, OR gets cheaper. Thanks

 Opinion based question: Will we ever see USD single crowns become a more common option?

 I'm sad to see the acquisition, but only because I look at PB and CT as the LEADERS of the bike media world. Outside will bring capital and more exposure, sure, but I come to PB/CT for the content provided, because it's already the best.

 “ User generated content from the community, brands, and athletes”

So the adverts from the marketing departments / sponsored riders will stay free but not the actual content on the website

 User generated content is all good and fine, but a big part why I go to pb are reviews and the nerding out about bikes. If those are behind a paywall I’m out.

 I subscribe to outside+. It is not worth it, their platform is hard to navigate and their perks are meaningless. They give you manufactures discounts for 10-20% when a die hard MTBer knows where to get 40-50% off.
I hope the staff at PB can help them get it sorted.

The reason I check PB everyday is for their content. They have a lot compared to other sites. If PB goes to a subscription service I will pay but the content will have to go up even more.

 Hi Pinkbike team. Just as when reading our bikes, we stick our neck out and take a risk to feel alive and evolve. Pinkbike needs to do the same. When I became a pinky it was for the gear reviews and articles. This s still a reason for visiting Pinkbike but the primary reason now when i think of it is for the personalities working there (you). I am not going anywhere....

 I think one thing that amped up the negative feelings about all of this was how unexpected it was.

As far as I can tell, there are a few general categories of enthusiast media out there. There are the ones that are obviously hobbies/side gigs for people who have other sources to pay the bills. There are others that already charge subscriptions or otherwise get funding directly from their followers. Some are a marketing arms of retailers, like what Revzilla does in the motorcycle world. Most of the rest fall into this weird "How can they keep the lights on and keep putting out this kind of work?" type of entities where it's obvious that one day they will either need to sell to an outfit like Outside or fold. When that happens, my reaction is much less emotional. Of course it was going to happen one day.

With Pinkbike though, things did seem different. It appeared that is was one of the rare ones that was able build a successful business as an independent entity. It has the perfect mix of being both a media source and, well, a social media platform that appeared to be valuable enough to advertisers that they could make it in the online media game. It was the one that was hiring the talent that other places couldn't afford to pay and the ones buying other bike websites or launching services like Trailforks. I think the shock of learning that it was Pinkbike of all websites that had gotten hoovered up buy a larger business that really set people off.

All that corporate speak in that Bicycle Retailer story didn't help anything either.

 QUESTION: So Bernard Kerr wins his third Rebull Hardline. I'd call that pretty dominant. I'd also call hardline the hardest timed MTB event in the world. Why Aren't guys like Kerr and Fairclough as dominant in UCI world cup DH events? Obviously there are some massive features at hardline that dont exist anywhere else in racing. Should the UCI world cup move more in that direction where for a lot of guys its a challenge to get down this ABSOLUTELY WILD course. Or does the the super precise detail of hunting for 10ths over a plethora of line choices make for better racing? I like seeing the best in the world pushed to their absolute riding limits. But maybe Hardline is as much spectacle as race What are your thoughts?

 I'm not a huge fan of media consolidation. Eventually there will be a dip that leads to synergistic redundancies, but in the meantime I'm happy for the security that this brings you all and look forward to more interesting content. Also, like most people that ride bikes I'm pretty cheap, I would most likely pay a reasonable amount for content from PB

 No need to get mad at Pinkbike, and no need from Pinkbike to ask people to stay water down their comments. This is 2021, for better and for worse, and the sale to Outside is something that happens to businesses everywhere everyday.

It's also in part a business decision made to help Pinkbike's employees get better work condition it seems, which is totally understandable. But the passionate reader's comments are also understandable and represent those people's authentic feelings, coming straight from the heart. If you want to take the pulse of your readership, it might be harsh sometimes, but there it is. Both sides are covered in the comments though, especially on today's posts. All ages and all kinds of people comment, this is a snapshot of your community right now.

People who don't want to pay can get still get their reviews and entertainment fix at many free places if they want. Even if "pay to play" reviews exist elsewhere, it's easy to gather info from multiple sources and still find the real reviews and fine details on forums, by asking other users, etc. If people want to pay for the future "exclusive" content to come on Pinkbike (everything that's not user, team or athlete-made content it seems), good for them, but sorry, I won't.

To add to the end of this podcast's analogy, in the 90's/early 2000s, I used to buy 1-2 bike magazines for 5-10$/month (BikeMag, DirtRag or MBAction). Now I pay 50$/month for my subscription to internet, and like 30$ more for my cell phone data, which is how I get my mtb information these days (not including Netflix and other entertainment sources). It's like a huge 80$/month magazine subscription(s) filled with ads everywhere, people tracking and gathering my data to sell it to companies, places to buy parts, etc. I won't pay an additional 5-10$/month for each website's subscription on top of that, sorry. Back in the days there were like 3-5 magazines, now there's millions of websites. No way I can pay a subscription to all of the ones I like.

All in all, it's sad to see this happen, but it was bound to happen. Long live Pinkbike and I'll still come back to check the free stuff from time to time. Sincerely, good luck with the future endeavours and al the best to the team!

P.S.: Thanks for the podcast episodes, they're a great listen and keep em coming (for free if you can)!

 Please for the love of everything keep the Pinkbike Academy free...

or I’ll HAVE to pay for the subscription

 Question: I'm teaching myself how to build wheels. Now I'm pondering what kind of spokes should I pick for my next wheelset. Which spoke type offers the best weight/strength ratio? Does the riding discipline affect the selection? My riding is between light trail and mild enduro.

 Can yall discuss how quickly a large swath of the PB community exposed their subtle and not so subtle racism on that Amaury Pierron article???? We talk about barriers of entry in the sport all the time, and I think the micro-aggressions of mtb's mostly white community present a larger barrier for non-white people than we assume. Pretty disgusted by people jumping to justify/defend slavery on pink bike............

 On another subject, love what you guys do, nothing is for free in this world so not so worried about paying something to get access to good content should that happen. As for podcast subject, maybe controversial but would be interested to hear a podcast on what qualifies someone as a bike tester? Don’t mean this in a negative way at all but have ridden with some testers who are super skilled riders but also some that are far less accomplished. When I read reviews of bikes I lean more towards where I think the test riders can really push the bikes but perhaps also getting a less experienced view is also great for beginners to relate too….?? How does it work?

 I get the reasons for the pay wall but I'm not totally convinced that ad content will be reduced if one is put in place. Every company says that does this says ad content will be reduced and then eventually changes their tune saying membership dues can't cover the costs. And I understand this isn't the staff at pinkbikes choice, but would be done by Outside. Curiously waiting to see what happens, but I have my doubts. Hopefully if there is a paywall it will be worth it.

 My only real issue with Outside acquiring pinkbike is that I just have to believe there was a cheaper way for them to learn how to properly mount Manitou forks, and one that wouldn't involve ultimately turning pinkbike into just another corporate web rag... but that's business I guess.

 I might pay for a subscription if PB can take more of an active effort to enhance the Buy & Sell forum to protect buyers and sellers.

I'd like to see vids of you guys breaking down, servicing, & rebuilding test components, as well as some more hacks.

I hope you all get raises and elevate your jobs / roles so that it becomes a truly sustainable lifestyle career. I've
gone through 2 M&A's in 2 years, and changed FT employers 4
times before that, and each time it helped me financially. Capitalism is not such a terrible thing if one is ethical and smart about it.

Good luck to you all @ PB. Now fix my fantasy teams so win some cool $h1z

 I won’t pay for content behind the paywall. I’m not mad about it and many people will. I used to read the magazines in the store till people stopped me. I don’t pay for the nyt or the post etc and I get better news and content anyway. Essentially I’ll just waste less time reading/watching about 90% of the products I’m not going to buy. I’m not mad though and I wish y’all well. Too many content creators that I can check out for just watching an ad. Things change and some people will pay for content and some won’t.

 I actually managed to miss the original article, so the pod was the first I heard about this!
I'm genuinely concerned, but am also willing to pay for ADDITIONAL content.
It may be a dirty word here, but I really like how GCN have added their premium content (which I have subscribed to and cancelled and then subscribed again), but kept what gave them the platform originally. Oddly, I'm not really a fan of their mtb content tbh.

PB, please don't keep all the stuff that created this opportunity (gear reviews mainly!) Behind a paywall and loose that audience that created the site as it is. They will quickly move elsewhere and suddenly there's a downward spiral

 I just hope the PB staff are getting noticeable increases to how much money they take home, because I’m sure they deserve more than they get… but if that’s not the case, it would be impossible to be anything but unhappy about the situation.

 Good listen... I look at your sister publication, Beta MTB.. About half of what I want to read goes up behind a paywall...But, they do leave most of the Bible of Bike Tests free.. Gotta bait the hook.. But, until I see things change, I'll keep coming by daily. I will admit, I was starting to wonder if the podcast was the first victim for a second there..

Maybe this additional staffing will get my resume considered now... One can hope... If that happens, you will hear me say " Subscribe for additional content " on a regular basis..

 Bikes-related question: what's the very least you all could spend on a new rig and be totally happy/content? I was stoked watching the value bike tests, (I've only ever ridden a hardtail and have been saving to switch to dat full squish lyfe) but noted you were all pretty dissatisfied with the brakes and inconsistent fork performance on the value bikes. Would you get a value bike and pay to upgrade brakes/poor gear or just save a little longer and go up another $ bracket?

Good luck with the transition y'all! If it really sucks I guess I'll just spend more time out on my bike and less time on my phone looking at pb.

 I mean if things like PB academy end up behind a paywall, I couldn't care less

My concern is that the reviews will become glossy and pointless. I don't want to see a PB gear addition, like I do every time I'm in the airport and see an Outside magazine. None of the "5 outdoor cameras reviewed and rated" where the bottom line is "I'm paid to say that they are all great. They are all great. One model became sentient and is currently working on Skynet, but its great, 4.5 out of 5 stars"

I wanna keep reading about the weird shit that @mikelevy does, the reviews where @mikekazimer makes me realize that I shouldn't be looking at this part or bike, or how Yoan Barrelli should leave Guerrilla Gravity and join Team Hortons. I wanna watch a field test event where a bike is called out for being crap, or behind the times.

 Just wondering what happens to bikes or products where Pinkbike gives a 'first impressions' review, and says 'Stay tuned for a full review coming soon', and we never hear anything about it again? For example, the EXT Era fork...

 When the outside thing was originally announced, I can't remember if I commented or just upvoted other people's positive comments .... still, if you counting # of comments on the good/bad side, here's one from me. I'm relatively new to MTB (3yrs), and even newer to Pinkbike (~2 years), and I'm fine with it all. Yeah, I can picture how some things might go badly (for the content and for PB staff jobs), but [a] I don't see why I should get angry about it in advance, I don't see why you owe ME anything, and [c] it's your organization and you can do what you like with it. I'll hope for teh best for everyone.

Beyond empathy and objective arguments, the comments under the original press release tell us (newsflash!!) that some people just act like jerks on the internet.

 7,000 feet in dense smoke?! save yourself, the eBike coverage can wait

 When are you guys going to review the Commencal Clash? I am surprised you guys haven't yet with all the major changes they made to it this year, I wonder if next year's model will be high pivot with an idler?

 I wish you guys good luck. I think Brian saying people are scared is incorrect. Users are upset or frustrated based on different perceptions of what mtb is and what Pinkbike may become. Scared no.

From a British (European?) perspective I don’t see great incentives from outside+ or a desire from the new owners that my profile be part of the user base

 First, product reviews were conspicuously absent from the no pay wall comment. Second, I’d you think being penned by a hedge fund will make reviews less biased a have a bridge to sell you. Lastly @mikelevy, you have on several occasions defended reviews in the comments when I or others have suggested your sram or Santa Cruz reviews were Pay-for-win. Lastly, @Canadaaka, what happened to Trailforks will always be free, Anne the baked in data harvesting is just for trail advocacy?

I hope everyone got paid. I probably would have done the same in your shoes. But stop pretending this isn’t what it is. Pinkbike sold out to get paid pure and simple. At least have the decency to admit it to the community who have made this site what it is today.

 who cares who runs things? as long as we can hear Levy prattling on about his mini, we are all set!! but seriously - if we can hear the podcast chat keep going - YES KEEP IT UP YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!

 Hopefully outside will pay for PB staff tattoos.

 so when is the PB clearance sale...need some souvenirs from the good days

 Bicyclepubes saw it coming
www.instagram.com/p/CB1Q6ZgFSb0/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 What happened to VOD and POD? Are they coming back? Gone for good? Did I miss the article about this? Quite the long standing feature of pb to remove without a word about it

 Just think about where your money is going if you subscribe, right into VC pockets.

 Serious question here. Why has there been little to no coverage on BC/Canadian racing? Disappointed to see more hardline POVs than race results.

 @mikelevy it only took until you called us outers... that we realized we were pinkers all along :')

 Remember when Trailforks changed to a Subscription model?

Remember some of us wondered why it wasn't and advertising model?

Remember some of us said the change was a dick move.

Remember some of you said "relax, pay up and shut up?"

Paywall time. Pay up and shut up.

 #imout...side

 Can you name the "pay to play" outlets?

 Is Outside making them use the winky-smiley emoji? Classic Outside.

 I have an 'Inny'.... 'Outies' scare me.

 I'm good with the paywall if it means they stop blowing sram and specialized.

 @mikelevy I especially like the part where you said you hoped you had e-levy-ated some of the concern!

 Methinks they doth protest too much.

 Uh, Levy ate my concerns?

 Will Levy's raise finally give him enough money to buy a real car, or will he be stuck with that old rust bucket?

 First paywall and Il be heading outside.

 Haha had to make a podcast to justify yourselves.
Can ya ask cathro to move over to vital or is he in for a bigger pay check too?
All the good stuff will be behind a paywall. Pinkbike will lose viewers for this and you know it’s coming so why bother? To go to the next level and get paid more money. This sucks big time man

 Hard lessons in monopoly capitalism are coming for us all unless we build other economic/social structures.

 Hah

 We’ve been Outed.

 It's not surprising that the commenters got so upset. The majority of mountain bikers are just as fragile and sensitive as road bikers.

 Hey *redacted*