The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 78 - Modern Geometry Explained

 I think you all missed a big point with seat angles: rear suspension has gotten so efficient that a ton of riders want to pedal their long travel bikes uphill and not use a lockout. When you point a 150mm+ bike up a steep hill, the rear squats and fork extends and the effective seat tube angle gets a lot slacker. Having a super seat STA to means the sagged STA returns close to a “normal” STA. I think this is one reason why you won’t see (many) XC/downcountry/XXC bikes with a 79deg STA.

That can be a great setup if you just ride straight up and straight down, but IMO feels like crap if you’re on a flat or ride on the road to get to the trails.

Not sure how conscious it’s been by bike designers, but I believe the conspiracy theory* that droppers are a big enabler because a super steep STA means a seat that’s more in the way at full extension.

*not actually a conspiracy theory.

 Single most important advancement? Dropper posts by far. At least in my opinion.

 Geometry and trail design are intimately linked, and both are influenced by available technology. Modern geometry, designed for high speeds and charging through terrain, wouldn't be possible on cantilever brakes, small wheels, and faffy suspension.

Enduro bikes wouldn't be popular if suspension still leaked all the time, tires deflated at the suggestion of rocks, and pivot hardware jumped off every third cycle. Who'd pedal one of those things around for 6 hours if it fell apart after 1?

Because bikes are more reliable, and more capable, trail builders have made tracks that encourage higher speeds and more air time. Now that we ride these bikes, gravel bikes exist to make 1990-style trails fun again.

 The OLDEST BIKE ...ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO!!! ... Who are you guys? Just out of kindergarten....

Oldest mountain bike for me....Dawes Ranger... in1985. That’s 36 years ago. Reynolds 531. Terrifying, even then. So flexible you could feel the rear taking a radically different direction to the front as you hit anything other than billiard table trail.

Latest bike for me ... Cotic BfEMax ... built last month ... capable, slack, climbs like a goat. Descends like very descendy thing.

 Really, for us old farts, the question of geometry improvements is easy - it's by far the most important thing to happen to mountain bikes in the last 30+ years. You can have a lot of fun on a v-brake equipped fully rigid singlespeed with a 66 degree head tube angle and decently long reach. Go try riding an old BMW or Heckler or something from the 90s with a ton of travel/suspension and decent brakes - but a super short/steep front end and tell me how it works out.

That said, a lot of people are riding pure XC trails on bikes that are a mile long and handle like boats. But that's ok, for the rare occasions they make it to Moab or the local flow trail, the bike can keep them out of trouble. And safe, for most of us, is fun.

The funniest thing is that we wouldn't have any of this progression without 29ers. For a decade prior to 2003 or so, every frame had pretty much the same geometry. Good old NORBA 71/73, baby! Then 29ers came along and that geometry go thrown out the window. Of course those early 29ers (I'm guilty of building some of them) were a step backwards in some cases, but it opened the door to the wild variety of frame design we have today.

-W

 Are high end shocks like the Push 11six and Ext storia worth the money? Would is be better spent on getting a lower budget option custom tuned or upgraded? (I've got a Storia V.3 so I've got a vested interest in this question)

 All Ebikes should have removable universal batteries (ie not proprietary) And bike manufacturers should provide bike weight with and without battery.

 Hard to say. Since I came from a 2002 Gary Fisher 26", and moved to a 2020 C2 Optic, it's hard to pinpoint one thing.

If I had to pick, I'd take hydraulic disk brakes, 29" wheels and a dropper post over modern geometry. I can moved my body around to compensate for old geo if needed.

 Don't you think it is unfair to pick a size the company doesn't recommend? Regarding medium Knolly. If you had done the same with Mondraker and said, "this thing is long, I'll take a small instead of large as you recommended."

Hey and if the size they recommend sucks then you get a more interesting review.

 I like how Levy sprinkles conversation about the Trust fork into a perfectly good podcast like a crossfitter sprinkles the fact they are a crossfitter into a perfectly good coffee break.

 Steep STA is the big thing that modernized long travel bikes, to be well-rounded enough to not leave me with an urge to get climb mode gimmicks nor an urge for an efficient short-travel bike in the stable for big climbing days.

 You forgot to address the main issue with the Canyon LUX Trail... The "Eyebleach" colour scheme of the most interesting spec version.

I really really like that bike and would order one instantly if it wasn't so hideous. it might be on the mild side of DC - but that is exactly what many European trails call for. I would however go with the 150 mm dropper if I was given the option.

 Can you guys do a podcast about racing organizations that are doing more harm than good for their sport by chasing dollars? UCI is supposed to be promoting cycling but instead they sold the WC rights off to the highest bidder and trying to watch it for free was a giant pain in the butt.

 Question for the Ebike podcast. Hang with me this is a bit of a long one. On commuter ebikes, I see many around town with a motor not at the bottom bracket but at the hub of one of the wheels. Hub drives seem to be much more common (not to mention significantly cheaper) on the commuter side of things, but I've yet to see one on a mountain bike. I know it would worsen the ride quality (more rotational weight, less center cg, and no access to the gears for the motor), but they are so much cheaper. Why do you think mid drive ebikes are dominating e mtbs right now? do you think we'll ever see a hub drive one? Thanks!

 I have a question that's only sort of related to geometry. You review all these expensive new bikes and you say a 2-year old bike is obsolete because we didn't understand bikes back then. What is supposed to happen to all these 2-, 5-, 8- year old $10,000 bikes? What's the lifecycle (good name for a video) of a bike supposed to be? Asking for a friend, because I ride a 2012 Trek Remedy 9.9.

 @mikelevy @mikekazimer Question for the ebike episode. If you were considering upgrading a bike, would you get an ebike instead? I have 2016 Giant Reign with 160mm travel and 27.5 wheels. This is leaving me over biked and under reached on most things but I still generally have fun on it. I am considering upgrading to a more modern trail bike but for similar cash I could get an ebike. To complicate things, several of my favorite areas have posted no ebike regulations but lots of trails accessible I would never consider riding without assist are right out my back door.

 hi - can anyone recommend a bike geometry sizing chart (or site) that gives recommendations based on modern geometry standards. It seems most of the sites use old style bike standards when recommending geometry and size.

thx!

 For your e-bike episode: I know the specs to prioritize for normal bikes, but what about e-mtbs? How important is the motor quality and screen functions compared to suspension? And how about sizing? Should one err on the larger side than go too small with all the extra weight on board? What’s important and what can be overlooked with specs and sizing?

 Does a comparably slack head angle feel different on a short travel / stack bike compared to a longer travel bike?

The longer the travel / stack, the longer the front center will be (and WB)…

Do longer travel / stack bikes need longer rear centers to feel balanced? (Compared to shorter travel bikes)

__

I like Seb’s thinking regarding wheelbase & stack vs. reach as a starting point for bike fit.

 I've said during bike nerd conversations that the dropper post and modern geometry have been the two most game changing improvements to bikes in the last 20 years.

I'd still argue that the dropper post takes 2nd place to the geometry improvements.

The question to ask your self is - would you prefer:

A trail bike with 2020 geo but 2007 parts (so no dropper post)

or

A trail bike with 2007 geo but with 2020 parts (incl. dropper post)

I think the answer is obvious - the 2020 geo with 2007 generation parts. While components have come a LONG way in that same time I don't think the difference is as significant as the geometry improvements.

 Question about ebikes. How repairable are these things for the home mechanic?

On my current bikes, I pretty much service everything myself because it's a enjoyable part of the hobby for me. Am I'm going to be able to service the bearings in a Shimano motor/bottom bracket thing when they inevitably need some attention? What if the control board on a 7-year old bike stops working, is that going to be easy to source and replace?

I will probably buy and ebike at some point in my life and repair-ability is going to be at the very top of my list of wants.

 Question for the next podcast: With all of the new high pivot bikes coming out do you think any more bikes will come out using the naild react 2 play suspension system that polygon and Marin have used? My understanding is that it has a rearward axle path like a high pivot but with a really efficient pedalling platform and no idler pulley. I’ve got a Marin Mount vision and despite it looking like an ebike, I love it. I’d love to know Henry’s thoughts after his time working with Polygon.

 @mikelevy Topics and podcasts for episodes 75 and 76 were great.

For the e-bike podcast, I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on whether when (of if) we'll get frame-and-crank only e-bikes.

While they scare the hell of me as a trail advocate, the older I get the more I think that I could get more hours in the woods on fun trails at fun speeds if I had something like an Orbea Rise or just a tad bit bigger. For example, the couple of weeks my kids are in camp in the summer I could alternate back and forth between a bike and an e-bike and get a lot more of those fun hours packed into those couple of free weeks. Or a really big ride on Saturday and an easy, e-bike ride on Sunday.

I've got an enduro bike that's only for travel. I work a desk job and love an excuse to use tools and play with my bikes. I'm also picky about my components. I'd love to share expensive bits like wheels, brakes (assume a rational world with external routing of the rear brake house), a travel-adjustable dropper, and maybe even a fork without having to fool with selling off a bunch of a complete build.

Any chance of that happening with what I assume are all of the lighter-duty, lighter-weight e-bikes that can run regular components that are set to be introduced later this year and early next year? Also, I don't consider the specialized s-works levo frame a real option. Even if wanted to spend that much money, I just couldn't live with myself if I was riding around on that thing.

 Question and short story

So today I was trying to put a new rear tire on. DHR ll double down 29er. My rim is very fairly dented. I was having the damnest time getting tire to mount, it kept losing air where the dents are. SO i turn my compressor way up and took the valve core out to increase air flow. and It worked oh boy how it worked. It worked so well that i blew the tire right off the rim. Here is where it gets strange. I blew my freebody, paws and all off the hub body and the end cap on the other side blew half way across my yard. So why did that happen? There was no air going into the hub so how did it get the force to do that. Lucky for my i did not have sealant in it, I usually get the bead set then let air out add sealant and blow it back up.

 Question regarding dropper post length and this desire for the longest possible. I agree longer may or should be better but aren't you limited by your leg length? Like even with the seat post fully inserted, if the full extenstion of the dropper puts you beyond you being able to pedal the damn thing, what's the point? I guess it's just assumed that frame designers have accounted for this by dropping the post insertion point, but I think selling the 'longer post is better' argument isn't for everyone particularly older bikes. Hell it might even be too high with full insertion due to the post requiring a longer insertion length.

 I would have been interested to hear some discussion about how too short rear-center number can ruin handling on steep technical sections, or at least require the rider to get out of the saddle more in order to keep the front week weighted, and how that relates to the decisions frame manufacturers make about whether or not to use size-specific chain stay lengths. For example, in my experience, the Pivot Trail 429 in a size XL for example, suffers from poor front rear weight balance if you try to stay seated on steep rough climbs, requiring me to stand up just to keep the front wheel from popping up over rocks. But perhaps this effect is only really a problem for riders on size XL bikes that have the same short chain stay lengths as the size S, and of course seat tube angle would come into play here as well when we are talking about seated climbing.

 Great discussion & I do have some good takeaways from this episode!

One topic could have deserved more attention for me: front and rear center lenght. Why? Because with modern geometry the wheelbase has increased a lot, but mostly because of a longer front end. Still few companies increase the chainstay lenght. This means that in a neutral position with most/if not all the weight on the pedals = bottom bracket, the weight is farther back compared to older bikes. You talk about it briefly and mention that in flat turns you have to put more weight on the center. This is a huge implication for me. If you think about it, this also applies to bike sizing, so larger bikes will need more active weight on the front than smaller bikes, in the case that the manufacturer does not increase CS length with bigger frame sizes (= most of the pack).

For me personally the 2 takeaways from switching from older bikes (2005 and 2012) are:

1) I was scared of the long reach at first, but as I'm rather tall (6'3) with long legs I was used to sky high seatposts which increased effective top tube length. Sitting on my supposedly long bike first, it felt pretty short really, of course because the steep seat tube angle does not add length.

2) Going uphill is MUCH easier now and makes way more fun. Having the high seat post meant sitting super back over the rear wheel so the front wheel would lift already on moderate climbs/pitches.

Even though I ride my bike to have fun downhill, I spend most of my time in the saddle to get to the pinnacle. Typically the time in the saddle is 5-6 times more than out of the saddle basting downhill. So for me personally I rather optimize my bike for the riding position. In the standing position I have more room to move around and I am not static anyway so ergonomic aspects are less critical to me. Great that you mention effective top tube lenght still has its place in assessing a bike's fit!

 In reference to the chamois / Levy comment here - I wanna talk geometry of chamois...aka a liner. I now ride a Zoic liner stacked with w/ sacrum / hip-bone and front / rear leg D30 (style) pads and it has saved my ass countless times, esp w/ hip-smashing. Serious reasons to wear one:

1) if yr taint / ballback / unit is falling asleep EVEN with the prostate seat slot. That was my main reason to score one but

2) have had several seat-to-taint slams where the pad more than saved the boys and probably rectal destruction and

3) that Zoic liner IS THE SHIT. There are other brands too but why not just have the D30 style padding right in the liner, plus ya get ballbag (or lady parts) protection. Now riding much more confidently w/ the extra in-liner armor.

It is a hassle tho - I'd rather just be younger & my taint / bag / unit department not falling asleep

 @mikelevy How far have we come - Penny Farthing National championship races, I think we have done alright
www.evandaletasmania.com/national-penny-farthing-championship.html
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhszVikmyb4

 I actually like a higher offset fork because, as weird as it sounds, I like to see more of my front tire when turning DH. I swear it makes it feel more stable when riding to actually see your tire. (Noticed this on my 20 Stumpjumper)

 Holy Cow it was hard to look up that bike you mentioned was like the Yeti DH3. Not a single thing besides “Martin” was spelled the way I tried!
For the record: Martin Seider’s Zoceli Dobordelu, not “martin cider zekelli” because that makes Google think I want either apple cider or Marin bikes!

 Personally attacked in this episode. Don’t knock a Trust on a hardtail until you try it!

www.instagram.com/p/CQEx9XjBrB7/?utm_medium=copy_link

 Dropper post on a older geo bike makes it very capable. My vote is for the dropper post. Can’t just add “geo” to a bike, but you can add a dropper to most bikes.

 Take a look a geometry on fat bikes. A lot of brands are stuck in 2010, it’s puzzling. Rocky is pushing a head, but still seems conservative. Note, fat bikes are still ridden in Alberta in the winter.

 IMO people should be buying geometries based on speeds and trails they ride the most.

 Someone should build a long low slack geo bike with rim brakes on 26s.

 How about a podcast all about and with special guest Minnaar.

Levy do you make it your mission to annoy Kaz?

 Question for next week: Do you think Nino was inspired by Levy predicting a massive win coming very soon for him? Wasn't Minnaar also predicted to win in last weeks podcast?

 So if geometry rules all, is a shorter travel bike (125mm) like an optic with a slacker head angle (65 degrees) more capable than my longer travel (150mm) YT jeffsy with a 66 degree HTA?

 just finished listening to the CEO's podcast, it surprises me how out of touch can Brian Park be sometimes "pinkbike users are very smart about bikes, but not about understanding the difference between private equity and venture capital" wtf was that? that "...fair enough" response out of Robin was just him being polite, if he didn't mention anything off the podcast he's definitely got Brian measured.

Brian might be right, I don't know, but he needs to be a bit more careful when referring to users right on their noses, geez...

 Thanks for the awesome podcasts, they are getting better every time! Can you please do an entire podcast on what jobs are available and how to start working in the bike industry?

 @sebstott - Agree that WB is the one number you should look at first.

Are you looking to do another Chris Porter podcast - your Bike Radar one was awesome.

 Maybe Outside can pump some resources into the podcast. We need at least three of these a week.

 I’m honestly just blown away that you guys didn’t mention Dylan Stark for your drop in roster

 The Stumpy Evo from 2019 was too slack for what it was. Thanks for all the work guys. Good episode! Oh... and list... I'd love to see Cam McCaul in there.

 You knew someone would have a Trust fork on a hardtail. This guy. On an aluminum Banshee Paradox V3

 E-bike question: would the PB crew agree that e-bikes are a backward step in preventing global warming?
My opinion is that, whilst they are often marketed for their environmental benefits, overall they are a detriment and the vast majority of users own them as part of a collection of cars and other bikes, not as a substitute for a car. (I'm talking about £3k+ mtb's, not road commuters).

 Levy I owe you some Tim Horton's for busting your balls.

 I do like me some Seb

 Get a bike that fits, ride it until it breaks, repeat. Stop thinking about it so much.

 Gary Fischer was the pioneer of longer top tubes. Mondraker was after that.

 Specialized Enduro is maybe the only bike to have the slacker STA of predecessor.

 Hi Guys, lovely podcasts you make. Really enjoying them. Any update on the EXT ERA Fork review? And EXT Storia shock may be?

 Geo wins, it was hard to peddle when your knees hit the handlebars...

 470 reach is also fine Levy xDD

 EBike question: when will we see 32" front tire mullet bikes with 29" rear for taller and better riders?

 Sam Pilgram for drop in revival